Bloody Mary

[Rence]

The document only said what was true: the Queen was a heretic by rejecting the Church and it released English Catholics from allegiance and obedience to her because doing so would be going against the Church. I don’t see anything unfair there.

Of course you don’t see anything unfair about the Catholic Church encouraging Catholics in another independent nation from rejecting their non-Catholic sovereign, you’re Catholic It’s only normal that you would come to that conclusion.

 

[Rence]

I’d have thought this pretty clear:

“And also (declare) the nobles, subjects and people of the said realm and all others who have in any way sworn oaths to her, to be forever absolved from such an oath and from any duty arising from lordshop. fealty and obedience; and we do, by authority of these presents , so absolve them and so deprive the same Elizabeth of her pretended title to the crown and all other the abovesaid matters. We charge and command all and singular the nobles, subjects, peoples and others afore said that they do not dare obey her orders, mandates and laws. Those who shall act to the contrary we include in the like sentence of excommunication.”

At a time when the survival of England was at stake, this was a pretty clear way of putting English Catholics in jeopardy.

You’re right Kanichen, it’s very clear. But I’m betting there were a few sensible Catholics who chose to honor their sovereign by simply obeying the law and continuing to be honorable citizens…otherwise there wouldn’t have been any Catholics left

 

[Kaninchen]

You’re right Kanichen, it’s very clear. But I’m betting there were a few sensible Catholics who chose to honor their sovereign by simply obeying the law and continuing to be honorable citizens…otherwise there wouldn’t have been any Catholics left

I think one can overestimate how far things went as far as the general population was concerned, in those days it was the people who ‘mattered’ who were in the greatest danger, those who needed to be seen to comply in some way.

They were known as recusants - here’s the wikipedia article.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, but right now, we are talking about Bloody Mary. Catholics, as well as non-Catholics, have alwasys been persecuted against. Jews, Catholics, Muslims, and at that time, Lutherans, were persecuted against depending on where they lived in the world. Those in power have never really been comfortable dealing with those who are in any way different from themselves. Henry VIII persecuted both Catholics and Lutherans, depending on his mood. Later and earlier monarchs did the same.

If you MUST refer to her with such an epithet, mind putting it in quotes? The woman had a name. . .Mary Tudor. “Bloody” Mary indeed. There were more people executed for being Catholic under “Good Queen Bess” but I suppose because nonCatholics were executed ‘first’ it was only an ‘understandable reaction’ and we should not only not be surprised, we should be scourging ourselves for the horrible sin of trying to stop heresy by what, for the times, seemed the only possible way.

NOT that I am saying killing is justifiable. I’m not. Not that I’m saying Mary Tudor was a gilded saint. She wasn’t.

But it’s rather sickening to hear the chorus of “Bloody Mary” thrown at a woman by people who in the very same BREATH go on to cheer "Good Queen Bess’ and even claim that “Bess” was all in favor of freedom of religion, aye, imphgm. . .

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’d have thought this pretty clear:

“And also (declare) the nobles, subjects and people of the said realm and all others who have in any way sworn oaths to her, to be forever absolved from such an oath and from any duty arising from lordshop. fealty and obedience; and we do, by authority of these presents , so absolve them and so deprive the same Elizabeth of her pretended title to the crown and all other the abovesaid matters. We charge and command all and singular the nobles, subjects, peoples and others afore said that they do not dare obey her orders, mandates and laws. Those who shall act to the contrary we include in the like sentence of excommunication.”

At a time when the survival of England was at stake, this was a pretty clear way of putting English Catholics in jeopardy.

Not to be picky, I hope, but this really doesn’t have anything to do with Mary Tudor. You know, the woman who for centuries has been stigmatized as “Bloody” so that people don’t even give her her own name. . .

And Elizabeth had been on the throne for about 14 years before the Pope actually issued the Bull above. . .14 years. She could have made some effort to actually give her subjects freedom of religion. The Pope gave her plenty of time to move on it. . .in fact, he waited a very long time. And by the time this came out, Elizabeth had already imprisoned Mary Queen of Scots. . .whom she had EXECUTED after an 18 year imprisonment. . . Of course, Mary Stuart was another one who has been ‘tarred’ as being nothing but a ‘wicked woman’ who was such a danger to ‘poor Elizabeth’. . .

 

[thistle]

Well…she murdered people because they wanted to be Lutheran and disagreed with Church teachings. She had that mission not only because her mother was Catholic, but also because of what was done to her mother due to Anne Boleyn (a Protestant). So it was more than just a Catholic agenda. It was a personal one as well.

Can you imagine torturing and killing people just because they didn’t share your faith? What kind of person does such a thing? Can you imagine the evil in that person’s mind and heart to burn people at the stake? It’s beyond me to think about that being acceptable and okay. I think she was very evil. But that was typical during that time period.

Protestants aren’t the only ones who call her Bloody Mary. Catholics call her Bloody Mary too. She’s infamous for what she did in the name of God. Her sister, on the other hand, ruled during the Golden Age…called so for many reasons.

That’s what the muslim terrorists do!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

That’s what the muslim terrorists do!

But with respect, it is not what Queen Mary did. Nor even is it what Queen Elizabeth did. There was a lot more to the concept of heresy in those times. . .without 500 years of ‘tolerance’ (which does not mean mutual liking but rather an agreement to accept something one HATES because the alternative to the acceptance is even worse).

 

[Rence]

That’s what the muslim terrorists do!

Yup. You’re right. Think about that…

 

[PiousTemplar]

But with respect, it is not what Queen Mary did. Nor even is it what Queen Elizabeth did. There was a lot more to the concept of heresy in those times. . .without 500 years of ‘tolerance’ (which does not mean mutual liking but rather an agreement to accept something one HATES because the alternative to the acceptance is even worse).

Thanks for all the answers! I ended up watching a documentary, british, so obviously going to be a tad ‘biased’, and it said that alot of it was personal reasons. It said she practically HATED protestants because of what they did to her as a child, and making her a bastard. It said she was a Catholic Fanatic who had nothing left but her faith, so when the protestants ransacked the Churches and removed the Mass, she was enraged. Meh.

 

[Kaninchen]

Not to be picky, I hope, but this really doesn’t have anything to do with Mary Tudor. You know, the woman who for centuries has been stigmatized as “Bloody” so that people don’t even give her her own name. . .

I don’t have a horse in this race, Tantum ergo, Jews were not allowed back in the country until Cromwell thought our return would issue in the Second Coming.

Nevertheless, Mary is rather portrayed as a half-Spanish queen who wanted to marry Philip II of Spain and hand the country over to the Habsburgs who were in control of Spain and a lot of Central Europe. Meanwhile Elizabeth is portrayed as an English patriot who was more concerned with establishing the independence of what was a relatively small and unimportant country (in comparison to the Great Powers of the time, France - which had a client kingdom in Scotland - and Spain) and getting the place to run properly, like her grandfather Henry VII.

The religious stuff - and the fate of a number of famous individuals - really does have to be seen in this kind of context, you know. The Papal Bull made the religious question a patriotic question, making Catholicism ‘unpatriotic’ at a very dangerous time internationally.