Book of Tobit and supposed "Historical problems"

[DylanO]

I was reading the first chapter of the Book of Tobit earlier and had come across the name Enemessar, I looked up this name and found it was another way of saying Shalmaneser, however upon finding that, I also found this:

The writer of Tobit makes Sennacherib the son (1 15), as well as the successor of Enemessar, whereas, according to the Assyrian inscriptions, Sennacherib was the son of Sargon. This is only one of several serious historical difficulties in the narrative of Tobit.

I have heard from many protestants of the supposed “historical errors” in the Deuterocanonical books, and was wondering how these alleged discrepancies can be countered.

 

[Penitus]

Seek and you shall find:

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0307bt.asp

 

[SyCarl]

There are other errors in Tobit that are not dealt with in the referred to articles. All quotes are from the Ignatius Bible Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition.

In Chapter 1 verse 4 we are told:

[QUOTTE] Now then I was in my own country, in the land of Israel, while I was still a young man, the whole tribe of Naphtali my forefather deserted the house of Jerusalem. This was the place which had been chosen from among all the tribes of Israel, where all the tribes should sacrifice and where the temple of the dwelling of the Most High was consecrated and established for all generations for ever.

This tells us that Tobit was a young man when Naphtali broke with the house of Jerusalem. This took place when Jeroboam rebelled and established the Kingdom of Israel. Yet this was more than 200 years before the Assyrian captivity of Israel. So Tobias had lived more than 200 years before the story even started, In the final chapter we are told that Tobit was 58 when he lost his sight. He was in Assyria at that time. He then lived another 100 years to 158. That would mean he actually had to be more than 300 years old.

There is another internal inconsistency in the book. In Chapter 1 verse 6 Tobit says:

But I alone went often to Jerusalem for the feasts, as it is ordained for all Israel by an everlasting decree. Taking the first fruits and the tithes of my produce and the first shearings, I would give them to the priests, the sons of Aaron, at the altar.

Tobit says he went to Jerusalem alone. Then in Chapter 5 verse 13 Tobit is talking to Raphael about the kinship he claimed.

The Tobit said to him, “You are welcome, my brother. Do not be angry with me because I tried to learn your tribe and family. You are a relative of mine, of a good and noble lineage. For I used to know Ananias and Jathan, the sons of the great Shemaiah, when we went together to Jerusalem to worship and offered the first-born of our flocks and the tithes of our produce. They did not go astray in the error of our bretheren. My brother, you come of a good stock.”

Tobit says that others went with him to Jerusalem which contradicts his earlier statement that he alone went.

 

[quasimodo]

Anyone challenging the canonicity of Tobit on these grounds will have to apply the same standards to all the books of the bible - including the Gospels - and will find them all lacking.

I posted the following previously, but it fits here too:

In the 18th or 19th century, German historians came up with the idea of scientific history. History was to be written like science. The idea was, and is, preposterous. It cannot be done - if you ask 5 witnesses to an event what happened, you’ll get 7 versions of the story. Which is right? The effort to write history scientifically died a quick death, BUT it still lingers in our minds as the way history should be written and the way it has always been written.

The ancient writers would have looked on any attempt at scientific history as crude and worthless. They were interested in the meaning of things not in “scientific history.” They thought nothing of combining aspects of a story into one event or rearranging the time line or using any other literary device to convey their meaning. Compare the Synoptic Gospels to John, for example.

We must be careful how we understand biblical inerrancy or we will have to believe there is a beaten metal bowl turned over the earth which holds back the waters of the sky - God makes rain by opening windows in the bowl. Inerrancy refers to the truth the original author was inspired to tell - not to how we expect history to be written.

 

[Susan1006]

If we think only ancients played fast and loose with times and places historically, we need to think again. History is written by the victors, and without the Bible to be a touchstone to the truth of human salvation history, protected down through it by the power of the holy spirit, we wouldn’t have any solid ground to stand on.

 

[inthecloud]

Esther, Tobit, Judith and Daniel are novels not historical books.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

There are other errors in Tobit that are not dealt with in the referred to articles. All quotes are from the Ignatius Bible Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition.

In Chapter 1 verse 4 we are told:

[QUOTTE] Now then I was in my own country, in the land of Israel, while I was still a young man, the whole tribe of Naphtali my forefather deserted the house of Jerusalem. This was the place which had been chosen from among all the tribes of Israel, where all the tribes should sacrifice and where the temple of the dwelling of the Most High was consecrated and established for all generations for ever.

This tells us that Tobit was a young man when Naphtali broke with the house of Jerusalem. This took place when Jeroboam rebelled and established the Kingdom of Israel. Yet this was more than 200 years before the Assyrian captivity of Israel. So Tobias had lived more than 200 years before the story even started, In the final chapter we are told that Tobit was 58 when he lost his sight. He was in Assyria at that time. He then lived another 100 years to 158. That would mean he actually had to be more than 300 years old.

There is another internal inconsistency in the book. In Chapter 1 verse 6 Tobit says:

Tobit says he went to Jerusalem alone. Then in Chapter 5 verse 13 Tobit is talking to Raphael about the kinship he claimed.

Tobit says that others went with him to Jerusalem which contradicts his earlier statement that he alone went.

SyCarl:

Please do as the article suggested and apply your standard to some of the stories in the Book of Genesis or any of the other histories of the Old Testament… As the article says, what you are pointing to are things which would have told the original audience, “Sit down and listen to this. Have I got a yarn for you!”

How would you teach the following to people who had never heard anything like this?

…The Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:26-28 RSV

As the Jews, and the world, had never heard this, Putting the lesson in a sweet story with a happy ending, a “morality play”, might be the best way to prepare the world to receive the same lesson from the mouth and pen of St. Paul the Apostle. As was said in My Fair Lady, “Just a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down…”

Please understand who rejected the Deuterocanonical Books - NOT the Apostles, Post Apostolic Fathers and Early Church Fathers who refered to them in their sermons and writings, but the Jewish Council of Jamnia held between 70-90 A.D.!

Please understand what the Jewish Council of Jamnia did - They cursed our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and those who followed Him ((“Yeshua HaNozeri” and His followers (“Birkat HaMinem” & “Nozerim”)).

Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.
1 Cor 12:3 RSV

Besides the obvious problems of chosing to be bound by the decisions of a Jewish Council over those of the Apostles and their immediate and hand-picked successors and their immediate and hand-picked successors…, we have the problem of chosing to be bound by the decisions of a council which CURSED our Lord Jesus Christ rather than the Synods and Councils of those who followed and publicly PROCLAIMED, “JESUS IS LORD!” UNTO DEATH.

You may chose to follow the Canons of unbelievers who cursed our Lord - I won’t. You may chose to ignore the council of those who followed and publicly proclaimed Jesus as Lord, even in the face of deadly persecution - I won’t.

Whose side are you on/ The side of those who Cursed our Lord?, Or, The side of those who followed and proclaimed Jesus as Lord even in death?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[juliamajor]

Wow- this is really a silly argument deciding if a book is inspired or uninspired by reason of historicity. Ancient Israelites had not one whit of knowledge about the "correct “writing of history. Look to Polybius for that. Nor did they care that much about it- notice chronology is a biggy in our way of thinking. To them it meant little.That’s why you see biblical verses that seem oddly placed or out of sequence. Israelites focus was Yahweh in their history- how He formed them , nurtured them, led them.I think that’s something WE should remember when reading. You can’t read each book in the same way! You can’t assume each is concerned with historical facts.Like one of the other poster said-Esther,Tobit,Judith are novels-(if we judge inspiration by historicity then Esther shouldn’t be there- there was fights over whether it should be included in the Canon at all). Jonah is satire and historically inaccurate- and if you really search you can find plenty- why nit pick? Straight Historical like narrative is more prominent in the NT thanks to the Hellenistic view of writing a chronicle. OT is not so much.After teaching the Deuteros I’ve decided that a lot of the Christian world is missing out of how New Testament theology of an afterlife, retribution after death, &Resurrection(purgatory if you’re Catholic) came to be formed during this very crucial and influential time period. These were not"400 years of silence” but a period of growth in a theology of hope that helped pave the way for the birth of the Messiah.There has been a resurgence in some Protestant quarters of the great importance of these books. But they threw the baby out with the bath water- too bad.

 

[victus]

There is another internal inconsistency in the book. In Chapter 1 verse 6 Tobit says:

Tobit says he went to Jerusalem alone. Then in Chapter 5 verse 13 Tobit is talking to Raphael about the kinship he claimed.

Tobit says that others went with him to Jerusalem which contradicts his earlier statement that he alone went.

It does not say that Tobit went to Jerusalem by himself all the time. But Tobit says “often,” showing that their were times that he did not go by himself. Nothing inconsistent here.

 

[victus]

There are other errors in Tobit that are not dealt with in the referred to articles. All quotes are from the Ignatius Bible Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition.

In Chapter 1 verse 4 we are told:

Now then I was in my own country, in the land of Israel, while I was still a young man, the whole tribe of Naphtali my forefather deserted the house of Jerusalem. This was the place which had been chosen from among all the tribes of Israel, where all the tribes should sacrifice and where the temple of the dwelling of the Most High was consecrated and established for all generations for ever.

This tells us that Tobit was a young man when Naphtali broke with the house of Jerusalem. This took place when Jeroboam rebelled and established the Kingdom of Israel. Yet this was more than 200 years before the Assyrian captivity of Israel. So Tobias had lived more than 200 years before the story even started, In the final chapter we are told that Tobit was 58 when he lost his sight. He was in Assyria at that time. He then lived another 100 years to 158. That would mean he actually had to be more than 300 years old.

Again the book of Tobit is not a historical narrative. You are making it out to be one. Something the readers at the time of this book circulating would have known, was that it was not a historical narrative, but a popular folktale, this time something more added to the folktale, the addition of how a Jew at the time can apply this story to himself and retain a meaningful message. In other words the book of Tobit is a parable. When I say “historical narrtive,” I mean a history book or an autobiography. Tobit presents the story as if it were an autobiography, but that is the whole point of the parable. Authors do this all the time. It is inspired because the Holy Spirit inspired the Author to write it. Theologically nothing is wrong with the Book of Tobit. As a matter of fact the auhtor must have known about 7 angels who stand in the presence of God because St. John uses this same imagery, which he learned from Holy Scripture(Book of Tobit), in the Book of Revelation.

 

[spanky]

As was said in My Fair Lady, “Just a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down…”

I’ve nothing really constructive to add here. Unless you’ve seen Mary Poppins as many times as i have, which is the movie where you’ll find that song.

 

[SongofShepherds]

Again the book of Tobit is not a historical narrative. You are making it out to be one. Something the readers at the time of this book circulating would have known, was that it was not a historical narrative, but a popular folktale, this time something more added to the folktale, the addition of how a Jew at the time can apply this story to himself and retain a meaningful message. In other words the book of Tobit is a parable. When I say “historical narrtive,” I mean a history book or an autobiography. Tobit presents the story as if it were an autobiography, but that is the whole point of the parable. Authors do this all the time. It is inspired because the Holy Spirit inspired the Author to write it. Theologically nothing is wrong with the Book of Tobit. As a matter of fact the auhtor must have known about 7 angels who stand in the presence of God because St. John uses this same imagery, which he learned from Holy Scripture(Book of Tobit), in the Book of Revelation.

Nice, I guess, Raphael is one Angel referred to in the book.

Alas, I don’t know the whole basis for good works but they are in Tobit certainly so I’d be weary of any adverse treatment to this fine writing.