Bp. Athanasius Schneider's reflections on "Amoris Laetitia"

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I am not saying this is at all what Bishop Schneider intends, just pointing out there is a party who will gladly quote him for their purposes.
Anybody can quote anyone they like, that is hardly the fault of the person being quoted. I’ve read people quote Pope Francis in order to support all sorts of liberal changes. Bishop Schneider’s response to Amoris Laetitia is not aimed at undermining he Holy Father, but at honestly asking for clarity regarding how this document ought to be interpreted. Bishop Schneider is frank and to the point and I would suspect tha Pope Francis would appreciate that. There is too much wishy-washy vagueness around, it is good to see a bishop who gets to the point. In the Church right now we are desperately in need of clarity.
 
Anybody can quote anyone they like, that is hardly the fault of the person being quoted. I’ve read people quote Pope Francis in order to support all sorts of liberal changes. Bishop Schneider’s response to Amoris Laetitia is not aimed at undermining he Holy Father, but at honestly asking for clarity regarding how this document ought to be interpreted. Bishop Schneider is frank and to the point and I would suspect tha Pope Francis would appreciate that. There is too much wishy-washy vagueness around, it is good to see a bishop who gets to the point. In the Church right now we are desperately in need of clarity.
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Bishop Schneider’s wish for clarification on AL is the same as his wish for a conference to clarify the documents of Vatican Council II. The good Bishop sees ambiguity as a danger to the Faithful, and i tend to agree. Some seem to believe that there are no simple answers to our oh so complicated lives. Hogwash! Our lives get complicated when we diverge from right living and make our own way. Jesus taught simple truths. God gave simple commandments. We complicate our lives by constantly straining gnats to assuage our sinfulness. And ambiguous documents exacerbate those who are trying to present the simple truths of the Faith to the faithful. “Let your yes be yes, and your no be no”.
 
👍

Another excellent and honest critique of AL has been Fr. Gerald Murray’s over at The Catholic Thing.

thecatholicthing.org/2016/04/23/reflections-on-amoris-laetitia/
Why the scare quotes around “irregular”? Scare quotes function as a substitute for the words “so-called” or “alleged.” Is the situation really irregular or only “irregular”? Is adultery a mortal sin or a “mortal” sin? Is it now incorrect to simply call a publicly known and persisting adulterous relationship irregular? Must one say that it is, you know, sort of, kind of, maybe in some way “irregular”? Then of course you can’t assume that any particular case of adultery is in fact a serious sin. It may only be a “mortal” sin. If the adulterous union is not in itself objectively irregular, but only “irregular,” then we don’t need to get into mitigating factors.
Also, the panel discussion of Father with Raymond Arroyo and Dr. Robert Royal on EWTN:

youtube.com/watch?v=E5Avd7bCiV0
Bishop Schneider is frank and to the point and I would suspect tha Pope Francis would appreciate that. There is too much wishy-washy vagueness around, it is good to see a bishop who gets to the point. In the Church right now we are desperately in need of clarity.
 
Bishop Schneider’s wish for clarification on AL is the same as his wish for a conference to clarify the documents of Vatican Council II. The good Bishop sees ambiguity as a danger to the Faithful, and i tend to agree. Some seem to believe that there are no simple answers to our oh so complicated lives. Hogwash! Our lives get complicated when we diverge from right living and make our own way. Jesus taught simple truths. God gave simple commandments. We complicate our lives by constantly straining gnats to assuage our sinfulness. And ambiguous documents exacerbate those who are trying to present the simple truths of the Faith to the faithful. “Let your yes be yes, and your no be no”.
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I think this is a perfectly legitimate reason why we appreciate Bp. Schneider’s words. 🙂

The Church must define the rules, rather than worrying about the exceptions. 😉

I think our Holy Father, like J.K. Rowling, needs an editor at times. 😛
 
I was going to joke that you must be a psychologist, and then I again noticed your user name. 😛

Incidentally, I quite agree with you with regard to your analysis and your response to my questions.
It gets worse, Polyphony: I’m a psychiatrist in a teaching hospital, so I have to memorize this stuff to make sure my students learn it and pass their exams. 😛

And thanks! But I think that is only one of many reasons why people appreciate forthright teaching. Many of us can respect what the good Bishop says without trying to set him in false opposition to the Holy Father (an opposition that he would surely be the first to reject); what I said applies only to a minority.

On another issue that several posters have raised:

There is an entire spectrum of beliefs which have been labelled “Traditional”, ranging from wholly orthodox and in full communion with the Church (such as the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter) via the SSPX (whom many of us have a sneaking sympathy for, even if the “disobedience” part is hard to overlook), through the “Recognize and Resist” conspiracists, to the Sedevacantists - passing through such hard-to-classify phenomena as Rorate (which veers between SSPX and R and R), insult comics such as “Heresy Hunter” (Google him, I dare ya! :p) and plain weirdos like the “I am the Holy Roman Emperor” dude (I forget his name). The “Traditional” label is unhelpful because each and every one of those groups will claim it. It’s better to simply use Chesterton’s old label, “Orthodoxy”.
 
Anybody can quote anyone they like, that is hardly the fault of the person being quoted … In the Church right now we are desperately in need of clarity.
Both Bishop Schneider and the Holy Father are treated this way. Look at how much of the latter is quoted with snippets here and there to decry the lack of clarity, which of course, misses the point of the document. “Lack of clarity” most often means, “Pope Francis did not say what I wanted him to in the way I wanted him to.” His writing is simple and clear.
 
👍

Another excellent and honest critique of AL has been Fr. Gerald Murray’s over at The Catholic Thing.

thecatholicthing.org/2016/04/23/reflections-on-amoris-laetitia/

Also, the panel discussion of Father with Raymond Arroyo and Dr. Robert Royal on EWTN:

youtube.com/watch?v=E5Avd7bCiV0
There have been many commentaries. This is the one the Holy Father told us to read as the final word.

zenit.org/articles/cardinal-schonborns-intervention-at-presentation-of-amoris-laetitia/

I am surprised Fr. Murray had a difficult time understanding the word “irregular”, in quotes. On one hand, he describe the normal use of the quotes, but then it seems he didn’t understand why they were used. If we are going to look to the commentators of others and the myriad of opinions in the blogosphere, we should pick people that understand what the Holy Father means, and that use the understanding the Pope Francis said was his final word (Cardinal Shonborn) as context.
 
Both Bishop Schneider and the Holy Father are treated this way. Look at how much of the latter is quoted with snippets here and there to decry the lack of clarity, which of course, misses the point of the document. “Lack of clarity” most often means, “Pope Francis did not say what I wanted him to in the way I wanted him to.” His writing is simple and clear.
So are you saying that AL is in fact crystal clear on the issue of Communion for people who haved remarried? Or is this a case of this being clear to those who ‘know’ how to interpret what has been written in the document? Clarity does not usually mean having to ‘read between the lines’.
 
So are you saying that AL is in fact crystal clear on the issue of Communion for people who haved remarried? Or is this a case of this being clear to those who ‘know’ how to interpret what has been written in the document? Clarity does not usually mean having to ‘read between the lines’.
Maybe you just have to have the special hermeneutic decoder ring. I seem to have lost mine.
 
So are you saying that AL is in fact crystal clear on the issue of Communion for people who haved remarried?
Of course not. It is clear on what it covers. The specific issues were not covered. Now if by lack of clarity Bishop Schneider means, “The pope did not cover what I wanted him to cover,” then I have no answer for such a flawed way of thinking. The Pope covered marriage. He approached it as an ideal. He also was quite clear that people need to be dealt with individually as people. Rules cannot address every circumstance.
 
Did anyone see the EWTN Raymond Arroyo panel discussion with Canon laser 's Murray,they pretty well analyzed the Popes exortation on amorous latitia and it was quite interesting to hear these nontraditional Catholics if U like to distinguish Traditional Catholics as somehow alien to the Church,what about the 6Th Commandment,having Parishes of another culture decide if Sacraments should be administered,individuals living in adulterous relationships albeit termed irregular,is just that,adulterous,these are things that were being discussed by the mainstream Catholic media,not sedavacantists,my question to the individuals on this forum is,is there Anything that this Pope could say or do that u might call in to question,it has never been problematic in throughout Church history to question the actions words deeds or motives of Popes,by the way I’m not a sedavantist… I do attend the Traditional Latin Mass ,on let me have it…if Of course this makes the press
 
Did anyone see the EWTN Raymond Arroyo panel discussion with Canon laser 's Murray,they pretty well analyzed the Popes exortation on amorous latitia and it was quite interesting to hear these nontraditional Catholics if U like to distinguish Traditional Catholics as somehow alien to the Church,what about the 6Th Commandment,having Parishes of another culture decide if Sacraments should be administered,individuals living in adulterous relationships albeit termed irregular,is just that,adulterous,these are things that were being discussed by the mainstream Catholic media,not sedavacantists,my question to the individuals on this forum is,is there Anything that this Pope could say or do that u might call in to question,it has never been problematic in throughout Church history to question the actions words deeds or motives of Popes,by the way I’m not a sedavantist… I do attend the Traditional Latin Mass ,on let me have it…if Of course this makes the press
This raises an interesting point: the phenomenon of the Holy Father as a public figure is of very recent making.

Prior to, say, the time of Pius XII, it was probably unheard of for the Pope to give interviews (and certainly not “off-the-cuff” interviews) to the secular press.

Papal documents, even if available in print, were not dissected by an army of online theologians (and “theologians”, if you get my drift… :p) within hours or days of their release.

Questions about how licit a particular practice (such as NFP) or interpretation (such as the “four-source” theory of the Pentateuch) were usually dealt with by short, precise responses from Church organs, such as the Pontificial Biblical Commission.

I think a lot of the angst we see these days is because, ever since the 1960s (and perhaps even a little earlier, during Pius XII’s pontificate), the Church and the Pope have become much more public and visible. They write more, and their writings or teachings are often addressed not just to bishops or priests, but to “the faithful” in general. Moreover, interviews are tricky things; even my fellow medical professionals have often gotten “into the soup” in front of an eager reporter, and some countries offer training on how to field tricky or loaded questions.

I’m not saying that it’s possible to go back to “the old days”, where the simple phrase “The Holy Father” carried with it an implication of reverent awe, and Papal teachings were not directly accessible to us at the click of a mouse, but were passed on through the filters of the hierarchy. It certainly is good to be aware of what the Holy Father writes and thinks, and to have it discussed in the appropriate forums. But I do think we’ve lost something in the transition, though I can’t quite tell what it is; perhaps a certain mystique.

Let’s take an example: The original Church approval of NFP was a two-liner from the Sacred Penitentiary; by 1968, Pope Paul VI had to write an entire encyclical on the topic, and now, every word from a Pope’s mouth is watched to see if he’s going to “change the doctrine on contraception” (witness the drama over Pope Benedict XVI’s allusion to condoms in a totally different context). It would be nice if we could go back to authoritative two-liners, but in this age of information overload, we can’t close that particular Pandora’s box.

Am I implying that the Pope should be above criticism? Certainly not. But I think we need to guard against a certain obsessive tendency to over-analyze his every pronouncement, interpret it in the light of our own political ideology (whether “liberal” or “conservative”), and allow it to lead us into needless doubt and anxiety. We need to guard against alarmism and wild-eyed conspiracy theories about “the Pope’s sinister intentions”. And most of all, we need to guard against using our own personal interpretations of a document of limited authority (to quote the Holy Father himself, AL was written “to gather the contributions of the two recent Synods on the family, while adding other considerations as an aid to reflection, dialogue and pastoral practice, and as a help and
encouragement to families in their daily commitments and challenges”
) to justify grave sins such as adultery and sacrilege. In other words, we must not allow the greater knowledge we have been afforded in this day and age to become an occasion of sin for us. Tough, but then, did Christ Himself ever say we would have it easy? 🙂
 
This raises an interesting point: the phenomenon of the Holy Father as a public figure is of very recent making.

Prior to, say, the time of Pius XII, it was probably unheard of for the Pope to give interviews (and certainly not “off-the-cuff” interviews) to the secular press.

Papal documents, even if available in print, were not dissected by an army of online theologians (and “theologians”, if you get my drift… :p) within hours or days of their release.

Questions about how licit a particular practice (such as NFP) or interpretation (such as the “four-source” theory of the Pentateuch) were usually dealt with by short, precise responses from Church organs, such as the Pontificial Biblical Commission.

I think a lot of the angst we see these days is because, ever since the 1960s (and perhaps even a little earlier, during Pius XII’s pontificate), the Church and the Pope have become much more public and visible. They write more, and their writings or teachings are often addressed not just to bishops or priests, but to “the faithful” in general. Moreover, interviews are tricky things; even my fellow medical professionals have often gotten “into the soup” in front of an eager reporter, and some countries offer training on how to field tricky or loaded questions.

I’m not saying that it’s possible to go back to “the old days”, where the simple phrase “The Holy Father” carried with it an implication of reverent awe, and Papal teachings were not directly accessible to us at the click of a mouse, but were passed on through the filters of the hierarchy. It certainly is good to be aware of what the Holy Father writes and thinks, and to have it discussed in the appropriate forums. But I do think we’ve lost something in the transition, though I can’t quite tell what it is; perhaps a certain mystique.
… It would be nice if we could go back to authoritative two-liners, but in this age of information overload, we can’t close that particular Pandora’s box.

Am I implying that the Pope should be above criticism? Certainly not. But I think we need to guard against a certain obsessive tendency to over-analyze his every pronouncement, interpret it in the light of our own political ideology (whether “liberal” or “conservative”), and allow it to lead us into needless doubt and anxiety. We need to guard against alarmism and wild-eyed conspiracy theories about “the Pope’s sinister intentions”. And most of all, we need to guard against using our own personal interpretations of a document of limited authority (to quote the Holy Father himself, AL was written “to gather the contributions of the two recent Synods on the family, while adding other considerations as an aid to reflection, dialogue and pastoral practice, and as a help and
encouragement to families in their daily commitments and challenges”
) to justify grave sins such as adultery and sacrilege. In other words, we must not allow the greater knowledge we have been afforded in this day and age to become an occasion of sin for us. Tough, but then, did Christ Himself ever say we would have it easy? 🙂
Good ideas here. Catholics who oppose popes since Vatican II often use the term “papolatry” and so on, as if there was an earlier time of more authoritative, dignified popes. Ever since the time of Pius XI the papacy has had to adapt to rapidly changing conditions, starting with his Vatican Radio. (I bet people fainted the first time they heard Mass on radio).

We live in an era when analyzing (attacking) the pope’s writing has become almost a new industry. Reporters make no money unless they can find something that supposedly contradicts something else. Websites, such as Rorate Coeli, don’t spike their donations and “hits” unless they find something that somehow, maybe by stretching here and bending there, is claimed to be some “new” development. The gospel is turned into a science of textual analysis, straight out of embalming school. I am sure Pope Pius XI said or wrote many things that were not anticipated a century earlier; so what? But back then there was nobody around to make money out of searching out loopholes.
 
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