Breastfeeding experts! Looking for help!

[AshleyBelle]

I posted this topic in the apologetics forum as well. I am having a conversation with a fundamentalist Christian who is pro-life, but denies that the birth control pill has any potential of being an abortifacient.

She has been using the argument repeatedly that if Catholics want to say the BCP is abortifacient, then we should also accuse mothers who ecologically breastfeed of possibly causing abortions :(

I received some great responses on the other thread.. But I was hoping that if I posted similarly here there might be some who have more knowledge about how breastfeeding "works."  It's my understanding that breastfeeding merely suppresses ovulation. And that if ovulation occurs, the body will naturally react the way it would regardless of breastfeeding.  But that the birth control pill takes an "extra measure" so that if ovulation and fertilization occur, it thins the lining of the uterus so that the fertlilzed egg is much less likely to be able to implant.

She quoted “the world’s leading expert on contraception” saying that breastfeeding does “essentially the same thing” as the birth control pill… And I’m looking for any evidence for or against this claim.

I know it is just an internet conversation and I don’t need to worry so much about it… but this conversation has me deeply disturbed. I want to remain open minded and understand where this claim comes from, but it truly feels wrong to suggest that breastfeeding mothers are “just as guilty” as women on the pill, if in fact the pill really has potential to be abortifacient

here is the question I asked in apologetics forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=341593

Thank you so much for any help, and God bless!

 

[JVSak]

NOT TRUE! Breastfeeding women aren’t guilty of anything. The suppression that occurs is natural and healthy for a woman’s body. First off, producing milk takes a whole lot of energy. It is exhausting and draining. If God made our bodies so that they would produce milk and ovulate/mensturate at the same time we just might die of malnutrition. Any woman can attest to the fatigue and physical pains/problems that come with the menstrual cycle. Breastfeeding is the same- only it lasts longer than a week a month. Our bodies are working hard to create, so energy is taken from other places to focus on doing other things. Hence why both breastfeeding and menstrating women look tired and worn and our hair and skin look terrible.
But the most important part of breastfeeding- just because you’re not ovulating as normal that doesn’t mean you can’t get pregnant! Maybe it will be harder, but not impossible. Many many women buy into this myth only to find themselves with babies less than a year apart. The difference between Breastfeeding and the BCP is the intention behind it. If a woman is silly enough to think either is a reliable and reasonable method of family planning, well, I guess that’s for God to deal with.

I’m not an expert, I’m just a mom of a one year old and went through a lot and read a lot.

 

[jwashu]

I posted this topic in the apologetics forum as well. I am having a conversation with a fundamentalist Christian who is pro-life, but denies that the birth control pill has any potential of being an abortifacient.

She has been using the argument repeatedly that if Catholics want to say the BCP is abortifacient, then we should also accuse mothers who ecologically breastfeed of possibly causing abortions :(

I received some great responses on the other thread.. But I was hoping that if I posted similarly here there might be some who have more knowledge about how breastfeeding "works."  It's my understanding that breastfeeding merely suppresses ovulation. And that if ovulation occurs, the body will naturally react the way it would regardless of breastfeeding.  But that the birth control pill takes an "extra measure" so that if ovulation and fertilization occur, it thins the lining of the uterus so that the fertlilzed egg is much less likely to be able to implant.

She quoted “the world’s leading expert on contraception” saying that breastfeeding does “essentially the same thing” as the birth control pill… And I’m looking for any evidence for or against this claim.

I know it is just an internet conversation and I don’t need to worry so much about it… but this conversation has me deeply disturbed. I want to remain open minded and understand where this claim comes from, but it truly feels wrong to suggest that breastfeeding mothers are “just as guilty” as women on the pill, if in fact the pill really has potential to be abortifacient

here is the question I asked in apologetics forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=341593

Thank you so much for any help, and God bless!

I’m a man but my wife has breastfed (is) each of our 4 sons. What your friend is stating is somewhat correct from the BCP side. But she, and possibly you, are mistaken. Not ALL BCPs are aboraficent, only a few that actually make the uterus in hospitable to implantation.

Thus she is correct in the sense that the original BCP tried to mimick the effects of being pregnant or breastfeeding in order to “trick” the body into thinking it couldn’t get pregnant again. As many know this doesn’t always work So technically the original pill was… but that pill was NOT aborficient.

The problem was that just like really breastfeeding, you can still get pregnant. So over the past 40 years they have added things to the pill to make it “work” better. The main thing they did was to add chemicals that make the uterus reject implantation… ie the aborficient aspect.

Breastfeeding mothers could not be guilty of this nor would some women taking certain forms of BCP.

Joe

 

[OLHope]

I have never had kids, but I think what Joe says rings true, different bcp do different things. I can say for sure, that based on others real life experiences with bcp, is that if taken continously for a long term like 10+ years is very bad. Out of five woman I know who did this, three are unable to conceive, and two were able to get pregnant after a few months of stopping bcp, and the first conception were carried through with the babies receiving massive heart/hypertension problems. I know of many women who were pregnant after bcp, but they were on bcp for a shorter time, about 2 years.

I am also not a doctor, but rationale tells me this really twists the natural aspects of hormones in the woman’s body. The day after pill is a stronger dose of bcp to reduce the hormone level lower at a faster rate, I know there are other aspects I am missing, but I am just drawing from real heartbreaking stories. All of these women except for one are Catholic, and somehow did not know the bcp were against the churches teaching. They are not too religious, but somewhere along the lines thought that doctors overided anything Catholicsm says. I never knew this was against teaching either, however I never took the bcp because logically I thought it was not natural to do that to your body. It is the natural aspects to conception that church has only ever advocated, which is why only nfp is allowable.

 

[kage_ar]

Advise your friend to pick her favorite brand of birth control pills, then to google that name and “package insert” or “patient information”. She will not find any brand of BCP that does not have changes to the endometrium to prevent implantation as a mechanism, not a one.

Here is the package insert for ORTHO TRI-CYCLEN LO - thepill.com/thepill/shared/pi/Tri-Cyclen_Lo_PI.pdf#zoom=100

Page one says (red bold mine) "

**CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY
Oral Contraception
**Combination oral contraceptives act by suppression of gonadotropins. Although the primary
mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical
mucus (which increase the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which
reduce the likelihood of implantation).

 

[AshleyBelle]

Advise your friend to pick her favorite brand of birth control pills, then to google that name and “package insert” or “patient information”. She will not find any brand of BCP that does not have changes to the endometrium to prevent implantation as a mechanism, not a one.

Here is the package insert for ORTHO TRI-CYCLEN LO - thepill.com/thepill/shared/pi/Tri-Cyclen_Lo_PI.pdf#zoom=100

Page one says (red bold mine) "

**CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY
Oral Contraception
**Combination oral contraceptives act by suppression of gonadotropins. Although the primary
mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical
mucus (which increase the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which
reduce the likelihood of implantation).

That was actually something that I mentioned in our conversation…

But she (who claims to be in the medical profession) said that it’s not “proven” the pill actually does this, and that the companies who produce the pill only publish that in the information to push their agenda to sell the pill and make it look more “fulproof”

 

[kage_ar]

I’m at dial up right now, so, cannot do a big amount of searching.

If you google Life Chain and go to their web site, somewhere on the site is materials. There is a great document about birth control from a non-Catholic perspective.

I’ll try to find the link…

 

[EvelynEVF]

That is a tough one, because one effect of breastfeeding on a woman who has begun cycling again, is a shortened luteal phase. This means that after ovulation, her period comes quicker, like 9 or fewer days instead of 12-14. We need at least ten for an implanted zygote to start making enough progesterone to “announce” itself to the body at large and stop the period from happening.

This is a very messy issue–we lose so many tiny babies so soon after conception, just naturally, through no fault or intention at all. Those who chart would be aware of early miscarriages that many other women would have just thought were late periods.

I think intention has to be a big part of it, but I don’t know much more than that.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

That is a tough one, because one effect of breastfeeding on a woman who has begun cycling again, is a shortened luteal phase. This means that after ovulation, her period comes quicker, like 9 or fewer days instead of 12-14. We need at least ten for an implanted zygote to start making enough progesterone to “announce” itself to the body at large and stop the period from happening.

This is a very messy issue–we lose so many tiny babies so soon after conception, just naturally, through no fault or intention at all. Those who chart would be aware of early miscarriages that many other women would have just thought were late periods.

I think intention has to be a big part of it, but I don’t know much more than that.

That’s interesting about the shortened luteal phase, makes sense. I’m nursing and AF showed up 8 weeks post partum.

But when that happens it isn’t because of breastfeeding, I think it happens despite the breastfeeding. In my case, AF started because I was separated from baby for 2 months (he was in the NICU), and I guess just pumping wasn’t enough to keep AF away.

I would say that is the exception and not the norm when infertile due to breast feeding, and not anything that the mother can control.

 

[taye]

Maybe your friend is correct that becoming pregnant while BFing may increase your chances of miscarriage. However, if we were to follow her reasoning, we would also be guilty if we were to experience stress or illness and experience a miscarriage during that same cycle. There are many causes of miscarriage, and perhaps we will never truly know all of them. The main point is that while BFing you may experience miscarriage, where if you use BCP, you will not have a miscarriage, but an abortion!

If we truly were to believe such things, only the lucky women who have 14 day luteal cycles should attempt pregnancy.

God, in his infinite wisdom, is allowing women who breastfeed (especially with ecological BFing) a time of rest for their bodies. This allows them the best care for themselves and their other children.

Pope Pius XII and Pope John Paul II made papal statements promoting breastfeeding. Some moral theologians have also said that women were morally obligated to breastfeed and that refusal would be like the sin of contraception!! This is far from what most believe, but refusing your child the best nourishment possible for trivial reasons may constitute a venial sin.

 

[kage_ar]

This MAY help in speaking to a non-Catholic.

lifechain.net/Contraception.pdf

 

[AshleyBelle]

Thank you so much for all of your replies!

I won’t have time to be on the computer much today, but I wanted to check in and say thanks. I think the woman I was speaking with has “moved on” from our discussion, feeling she has proven her point… But I will continue to post this information for the lurkers on the other forum so that they can see both sides.

God bless!

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Also wanted to add that the Lactation Amenorrhea Method, (LAM) is not considered effective once menstruation starts. So if an NFP practicing woman were to start menstruation while nursing, she would then go on to look for other signs of ovulation.

 

[queen_anne78]

That is a tough one, because one effect of breastfeeding on a woman who has begun cycling again, is a shortened luteal phase. This means that after ovulation, her period comes quicker, like 9 or fewer days instead of 12-14. We need at least ten for an implanted zygote to start making enough progesterone to “announce” itself to the body at large and stop the period from happening.

This is a very messy issue–we lose so many tiny babies so soon after conception, just naturally, through no fault or intention at all. Those who chart would be aware of early miscarriages that many other women would have just thought were late periods.

I think intention has to be a big part of it, but I don’t know much more than that.

The difference is all about intent. The breastfeeding woman is not INTENDING to abort. Even if she will have a shorter luteal phase, that is completely dependant on her body and the way her body reacts to nursing hormones. Some women are more sensitive than others. Once a breastfeeding woman has begun cycling again, the LAM, as Mary Gail mentions, is no longer an effective method for spacing children. Looking at other biological signs is important. In taking a pill that CLEARLY, as its third way of preventing pregnancy, makes it impossible for a new baby to implant, one’s INTENT is to not get pregnant. One’s intent is to prevent pregnancy at any cost, even the cost of the child. The woman who continues to breastfeed after a returned menses is NOT doing the same thing. Good grief. Her luteal phase may or may not be shorter, depend on her on her own physioloigical make up. But she is not INTENDING to abort her child. She is nourishing her already born child and leaving another pregnancy up to God.

My 25 month old is still breastfeeding very regularly. We used Ecological Breastfeeding to space our kids, my cycle returned at around 20 months. Once that happened, I began charting again. After 2 annovulatory cycles and one cycle where we all had the flu, we got pregnant Looking at my chart, my luteal phase was actually longer while I’ve been nursing. Every woman’s body is different.

ABC vs. the way our bodies have been designed BY OUR CREATOR to function…I mean. It’s like two totally different things. Fascinating debate though.

 

[jwashu]

Advise your friend to pick her favorite brand of birth control pills, then to google that name and “package insert” or “patient information”. She will not find any brand of BCP that does not have changes to the endometrium to prevent implantation as a mechanism, not a one.

Here is the package insert for ORTHO TRI-CYCLEN LO - thepill.com/thepill/shared/pi/Tri-Cyclen_Lo_PI.pdf#zoom=100

Page one says (red bold mine) "

**CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY
Oral Contraception
**Combination oral contraceptives act by suppression of gonadotropins. Although the primary
mechanism of this action is inhibition of ovulation, other alterations include changes in the cervical
mucus (which increase the difficulty of sperm entry into the uterus) and the endometrium (which
reduce the likelihood of implantation).

When we were still Protestants, before we even considered BCP might be wrong (she had been on others since early college when we started dating) we moved to these before we got married because we were told they “worked” better.

After a few years we started trying to have children… after 3 years and 1 miscarriage we were at our wits end trying to have a child.

It was only later, after our first child was born and I was starting to consider the Church that I began to unravel the true nature of this particular BCP.

The Church teaches that we shouldn’t take any… you can’t force that on your Protestant friend but PLEASE tell her and anyone else you know to stay away from these and the like. I’m 100% convinced they are a major part of the problem with the infertility issues so many are experiencing today.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

That is a tough one, because one effect of breastfeeding on a woman who has begun cycling again, is a shortened luteal phase. This means that after ovulation, her period comes quicker, like 9 or fewer days instead of 12-14.

My longest luteal phase ever was the one cycle I had between my two pregnancies.

ABC vs. the way our bodies have been designed BY OUR CREATOR to function…I mean. It’s like two totally different things. Fascinating debate though.

To Miss Ashley, the OP –

I practice Ecological Breastfeeding, and the first time I ovulated postpartum (at 15 months), we conceived. No “abortion” or miscarriage there. Even if I hadn’t been blessed with another baby so soon, there wouldn’t have been any “abortions” going on, since letting nature take its course is not seeking “abortion.”

I also tandem nurse my children (ages 3.5 and 1.5), so if nursing causes the new baby to die, my son wouldn’t be nursing on my lap right now.

The biggest hole in her argument, in my opinion, is that she quoted the world’s leading expert on contraception, while discussing breastfeeding. The world’s leading experts on breastfeeding should be quoted when discussing breastfeeding. Duh.