Brother insists on scattering ashes

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praytell

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Our situation is that my father is in the late stages of dementia and end of life planning is underway. My brother has power of attorney and is making the arrangements. My father had told him that he wanted no funeral and that he wanted his ashes scattered. I am trying to get him to understand that, as Catholics, we aught not do this.

My father and he have been non-practicing for a long time.

Is there any advice you can give to either help convince him or to help me live with whatever happens?
 
If your brother has the legal authority to make the arrangements, there isn’t anything you can do. You’ve let them know your thoughts. There isn’t anything else you can do.

I think you just have to let it go and be at peace about it. Pray for your father, and for your family.

Perhaps create a garden space at your home (assuming you have a yard) and put a marker in remembrance of your father there since you will have no grave to visit.

Perhaps ask your brother if you can have a **portion **of the ashes to place in a memorial on your property (not sure what laws are on that) as you would like to have a place to visit him.
 
1ke said:
If your brother has the legal authority to make the arrangements, there isn’t anything you can do. You’ve let them know your thoughts. There isn’t anything else you can do.

I think you just have to let it go and be at peace about it. Pray for your father, and for your family.

Perhaps create a garden space at your home (assuming you have a yard) and put a marker in remembrance of your father there since you will have no grave to visit.

Perhaps ask your brother if you can have a **portion **of the ashes to place in a memorial on your property (not sure what laws are on that) as you would like to have a place to visit him.
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It is unfortunate that the OP was not made aware of these plans before the father lost his capacity to be reasoned with or to explain himself.

The OP does not say there is a financial barrier to procuring a columbarium niche for whatever portion of the father’s ashes that the brother is willing to allow to be taken to a local Catholic cemetery. If nothing else, he may be willing to allow the OP to have the container, which, well–does anyone want to dispose of that in a normal trash can? If it is plastic, though, it can hardly be “scattered” without offense to the environment or laws concerning unauthorized dumping.

As far as I know, there are not any “ash burial police” in any state. Non-cremated human remains are a health department matter; ashes are not. Some jurisdictions will not give permission for scattering ashes or interring ashes on property they control, but that doesn’t mean they are out looking for “offenders.” The EPA does not normally permit burials at sea closer to shore than 3 nautical miles, not even when the remains have been cremated. The rules concerning inland waters vary by state.

I have been to a memorial service of a non-Catholic couple whose children scattered their ashes. I did not stay around for the scattering part. The family was OK with that (if for no other reason than it was understandable that I didn’t want their parents last earthly remains to wind up in my washing machine.)
 
I’m sorry, but I think your father’s wishes should be respected. I understand that scattering ashes is not allowed in Catholicism, so I advise doing what 1ke suggests.

Lou
 
Lou2U said:
I’m sorry, but I think your father’s wishes should be respected. I understand that scattering ashes is not allowed in Catholicism, so I advise doing what 1ke suggests.

Lou
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It would have been preferable if the brother had *mentioned *what he had been told when the father was still with it enough that the siblings could have verified what he meant and perhaps asked if the father if he would relent. The father could not have managed that without the cooperation of the person to whom he granted that authority to direct the disposition of his remains according to the laws of his state. (Power of attorney ceases when the principal has died, and the laws for who has authority over the disposition of a body vary by state.)

There are a lot of families who suffer hard feelings for years because the family member given power of attorney, made the executor, or given other authority over the parents affairs in the event of their incapacity or death–very often the oldest of the children or the one who got some particular education judged better for an executor–tries to keep everything a secret. If the family member making arrangements for themselves wants everything to be a secret because some family member “won’t like it,” at least convince them to put it in writing. Otherwise, expect resentment that you denied your siblings or other relatives the same chance that you had to give feedback about the arrangements being made.
 
Scattering of ashes is not allowed by the Church, but neither is keeping them at home.

Human ashes or “cremains” are to be treated as thorough they still were a body, in recognition that in eternity there will again be a body. As such, they must be kept together and either buried in a cemetery or placed in a crypt. But presumably your brother would agree to neither the ceremony nor expense.

So putting up a marker as suggested is the only option.

My condolences and ICXC NIKA
 
EasterJoy said:
It would have been preferable if the brother had *mentioned *what he had been told when the father was still with it enough that the siblings could have verified what he meant and perhaps asked if the father if he would relent. The father could not have managed that without the cooperation of the person to whom he granted that authority to direct the disposition of his remains according to the laws of his state. (Power of attorney ceases when the principal has died, and the laws for who has authority over the disposition of a body vary by state.)

There are a lot of families who suffer hard feelings for years because the family member given power of attorney, made the executor, or given other authority over the parents affairs in the event of their incapacity or death–very often the oldest of the children or the one who got some particular education judged better for an executor–tries to keep everything a secret. If the family member making arrangements for themselves wants everything to be a secret because some family member “won’t like it,” at least convince them to put it in writing. Otherwise, expect resentment that you denied your siblings or other relatives the same chance that you had to give feedback about the arrangements being made.
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Yes, I do agree that this should have been discussed with all family members to get to a resolution. And I understand that the OP disagrees with the decision, but it was their father’s choice and I think it should be upheld. I am sorry about it, though, seeing a family member suffer through dementia and preparing for his death is bad enough, let alone having to argue about what happens afterwards. Not nice at all.

Lou
 
Unless your brother has this in writing I wouldn’t believe it. I would try to get the family to fight for the right to bury your father with a Cathoic Mass. I really is the best thing for him even if the son disagrees. You have to fight for what is right. DOn’t give up and storm heaven with your prayers.
 
Lou2U said:
Yes, I do agree that this should have been discussed with all family members to get to a resolution. And I understand that the OP disagrees with the decision, but it was their father’s choice and I think it should be upheld. I am sorry about it, though, seeing a family member suffer through dementia and preparing for his death is bad enough, let alone having to argue about what happens afterwards. Not nice at all.

Lou
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My caution is for anyone reading this who is put into the position of the brother and anyone who is making their own estate plans and plans for possible incapacity.

If you are the one selected to have power of attorney or to be the executor or trustee of the estate, resist the urge to keep any other heirs unaware of what is in your parents’ plans, whether before or after your parent dies.

If your parent or relative wants secrecy, ask them to protect you from the repercussions by putting their wishes in their own handwriting, with a date, or recording a video of their wishes. Have them include their wish that the plan remain confidential until they die. If they are not dead-set against secrecy, encourage them to share their wishes with everyone who will be affected.

If your parent is dead and you are the executor, learn what your legal responsibilities are, do them to the letter and keep good records of everything you do, and be as open with all of the heirs as possible as soon as possible. The temptation is to keep the number of cooks in the kitchen as low as possible, but that strategy can really backfire in ways that are both emotionally painful and even financially expensive. Emotions will be very high; try to avoid anything provocative and avoid exposing yourself to accusations of having an unfair hidden agenda.
ProdigalSun said:
Unless your brother has this in writing I wouldn’t believe it. I would try to get the family to fight for the right to bury your father with a Cathoic Mass. I really is the best thing for him even if the son disagrees. You have to fight for what is right. DOn’t give up and storm heaven with your prayers.
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My point is made. It is far better to have this out while the parent is alive to be the ultimate referee, so there is absolutely no question what his or her wishes were and no question that the parent was not going to relent. Don’t just think about what you want. Think about what your siblings might feel at the time when their feelings are going to be the most raw and adamant you’ve ever seen them.

Oh, and make your plans for yourself now. You don’t know when your time is going to come, whether that is incapacity to give your wishes or whether that is your death.
 
Depending on what state you are in…

Certain states, Washington included, required (or at least used to require) that all living children of a decedent sign a consent order before cremation could take place. If you are opposed to brother’s plan, make it known. Hold out. Do you have other brothers and sisters? Previous posters are correct. Durable general power of attorney extinguishes at the maker’s death. All children have a voice in this.

The cost of a niche is minimal compared to the weight of the resentment which you will carry for YEARS if this goes forward the way it is. Offer to pay for it yourself. It is a delicate time for you right now.

Make certain your father has been anointed.

St Thomas More, patron of attorneys, pray for us.
 
venite_adoremus said:
Depending on what state you are in…

Certain states, Washington included, required (or at least used to require) that all living children of a decedent sign a consent order before cremation could take place. If you are opposed to brother’s plan, make it known. Hold out. Do you have other brothers and sisters? Previous posters are correct. Durable general power of attorney extinguishes at the maker’s death. All children have a voice in this.

The cost of a niche is minimal compared to the weight of the resentment which you will carry for YEARS if this goes forward the way it is. Offer to pay for it yourself. It is a delicate time for you right now.

Make certain your father has been anointed.

St Thomas More, patron of attorneys, pray for us.
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If nothing else, ask for the box the ashes come in. There will inevitably be some of your father’s remains clinging to the inside, remains which cannot be allowed to go into the trash.
 
Burial at sea sounds interesting. Does a lake count as a sea burial?

When my brother says that my father wanted this, I have no doubt that it is the case. My father had fallen away from the faith a long time ago. I can remember only one time when he went to Mass with us as kids, otherwise he wanted nothing to do with it. My brother fell away in his early teens along with myself and my sister. I am the only one who has returned and get gently mocked from time to time.

Thanks for all the responses. I will continue the conversation with him. While this situation is causing me concern, it is not pulling our family apart. I will also make sure that he gets anointing before he passes.
 
praytell said:
Burial at sea sounds interesting. Does a lake count as a sea burial?

When my brother says that my father wanted this, I have no doubt that it is the case. My father had fallen away from the faith a long time ago. I can remember only one time when he went to Mass with us as kids, otherwise he wanted nothing to do with it. My brother fell away in his early teens along with myself and my sister. I am the only one who has returned and get gently mocked from time to time.

Thanks for all the responses. I will continue the conversation with him. While this situation is causing me concern, it is not pulling our family apart. I will also make sure that he gets anointing before he passes.
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I am glad your family is doing well. The passing of a parent can bring up emotions that families and especially parents did not see coming. They may have been in the habit of putting the responsibility on the oldest for many years, not realizing the emotional issues this can cause when none of the children are children any more.

I’ve known many families that have run into surprises: the youngest, because they’re 50 years old and still treated like a child and the older ones because everyone is an adult but they’re either still being treated as a quasi-parent or else being resented for having that position among the siblings. Resentments between siblings who do the lion’s share of caretaking for parents and those who are not (or choose not to help) can also be a surprise. A great many things from childhood that you didn’t even know you felt can come up.

As for burial in a lake, this is the most recent statement of the ideal:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20160815_ad-resurgendum-cum-christo_en.html

If your family opts for water as a compromise, you’d definitely want a body of water not likely to ever be drained or dredged, and the urn needs to be securely weighted so it never bobs up on shore somewhere. The urn should also be marked clearly, so it can be identified if the remains ever are disturbed for some reason.
 
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