Buddhists, does one become omniscient after reaching Enlightenment

[Techno2000]

I suspect that office is assuming that you are talking about a gandhabba/gandharva which shares a few similarities with a soul: it is one of the non-material components of a human being involved in reincarnation.

As stated in the Aggañña Sutta, a human may be reborn as an immaterial being in one of the immaterial heavens, the “World of Radiance”. When their life in that heaven ends then they may be reborn again on earth. The gandhabba is what carries accumulated karma from the earlier life to the subsequent life.

In Buddhist cosmology the material universe undergoes cycles of construction and destruction: Big Bang followed by Big Crunch followed by Big Bang… When the material universe is destroyed, all living beings are in one of the immaterial worlds: heavens or hells. As the material universe re-establishes itself it becomes possible to be reborn in the material world again. This is where the “first Man and Woman” part of your question applies.

rossum

I didn’t understand anything you said.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

It depends on how you obtain enlightenment. In the Pali suttas (the earliest Buddhist texts), at least two ways are mentioned. Being liberated by concentration & wisdom and being liberated simply by wisdom.

What is the difference between being liberated “simply by wisdom” and “concentration & wisdom”? How is enlightenment achieved for each one in practice?

 

[Thomas_White]

It depends on how you obtain enlightenment. In the Pali suttas (the earliest Buddhist texts), at least two ways are mentioned. Being liberated by concentration & wisdom and being liberated simply by wisdom. Those who have been liberated by the former have access to past life memories [and other special powers], those liberated by the latter do not, but are no less enlightened. At the first Buddhist council, where 500 fully enlightened monks are said to have participated, a significant portion was liberated by wisdom only. The quality of their enlightenment was not different. It is not like one group was greater or lesser than the other, but remembering past lives is a fruit of very deep concentration states and it is possible to be fully liberated from all the taints without becoming that skilled at doing concentration practices.

Enlightenment in the early Buddhist texts is synonymous with the destruction of fetters or chains that bind us to the round of rebirth. It is not about becoming an all knowing god-like figure. It happens in four stages. The first stage of enlightenment is when the three first fetters are broken, made like a palm stump, eradicated, not subject to future arising. In the next stage, two more fetters are severely weakened but not entirely eradicated. The third stage means the first five are broken, and finally in the fourth and last stage all ten fetters are broken. They number as follows:

1. Identity/personality view. Belief in a self, whether a permanent inner essence that confers identity, the “master of the house” that controls the body, the “feeler of feelings and thinker of thougts”, a “supreme divine self” that is identical to the divine consciousness, etc. etc. Humans have concocted many ways of selfing.
2. Skeptical doubt (of the kind that destroys ones spiritual practice).
3. Overconfidence in the efficacy of rites and rituals.
4. Sensual desire, including greed and sexual lust.
5. Ill will/aversion, including anger and hatred.
6. Lust for material existence.
7. Lust for immaterial existence.
8. Conceit, which means both the fuzzy feeling that “I exist” which remains even after the first fetter has been broken, and also the idea that “I am better”, “equal” or “lower” than other beings.
9. Restlessness (for instance impediments to right mindfulness/concentration during meditation due to temporal stains of sin, to adopt catholic language).
10. Ignorance.

Thanks for this helpful reply.

 

[anon99031074]

What is the difference between being liberated “simply by wisdom” and “concentration & wisdom”? How is enlightenment achieved for each one in practice?

One way is to do a great deal of concentration practices and master the states known as jhanas and formless states. These are then used to gain insight about the nature of experience. Another (slightly different) way is to do insight practices such as contemplating the body, the breath etc., with a view to understanding their characteristics as not-self, dukkha (suffering, not satisfying) and impermanence directly, without first having mastered all the concentration states it is possible for some human beings to attain.

People are different. We are born with different baggage, and not all people who have the potential to awaken fully have the potential to attain all the concentration states. This does not mean that they become “less enlightened” once the fetters are destroyed and they enter and remain in the unsurpassed liberation of mind. It might impact their ability to be of benefit to other people, but even then other factors are important, such as charisma.

Fundamentally, the Dhamma of the Buddha is about understanding suffering, and through that understanding letting go.

Thanks for this helpful reply.

You’re welcome

 

[Ben_Sinner]

One way is to do a great deal of concentration practices and master the states known as jhanas and formless states. These are then used to gain insight about the nature of experience. Another (slightly different) way is to do insight practices such as contemplating the body, the breath etc., with a view to understanding their characteristics as not-self, dukkha (suffering, not satisfying) and impermanence directly, without first having mastered all the concentration states it is possible for some human beings to attain

But, they both would require meditation to achieve them, right?

 

[anon99031074]

But, they both would require meditation to achieve them, right?

Meditation is in part concentration training, and concentration is necessary in order to be mindful of what happens in the body/mind. There are people who are born with excellent concentration skills and ability to be mindful, but most of us are going to need training in both in order to be able to experience for ourselves what the Dhamma is all about. A stock formula used over and over again in the early Buddhist texts is that the Dhamma is “to be experienced by the wise”. Not simply intellectually grasped.

Meditation and mastery of concentration states becomes progressively more necessary as one advances along the stages of enlightenment. Stream entry, the first stage of enlightenment, can happen without much or even any meditation. Lots of people are said to have become stream enterers merely by hearing the Dhamma taught well in the early Buddhist texts. And stream entry is a very, very good thing. It is much preferable to becoming the president of the US, from a Buddhist point of view. It basically means that one will never be reborn in a state lower than human and full enlightenment will happen before one has lived seven lives (including the one in which one attains stream entry).

So even if someone is not super-skilled at meditation, stream entry is within reach for most people who have a serious interest in the Dhamma and who are following the lay-precepts of not willfully destroying life, taking what is not given, engaging in sexual misconduct, speaking falsely, and using intoxicants that cloud the mind & cause heedlessness.

 

[Peter_J]

Buddhists believe that the Buddha was a man. That is the point: what one man did, other men can do as well.

Everyone will eventually attain enlightenment. You don’t even have to be a Buddhist to do so (though it does help):

[At Polonnaruwa] I am able to approach the Buddhas barefoot and undisturbed, my feet in wet grass, wet sand. Then the silence of the extraordinary faces. The great smiles. Huge and yet subtle. Filled with every possibility, questioning nothing, knowing everything, rejecting nothing, the peace not of emotional resignation but of sunyata, that has seen through every question without trying to discredit anyone or anything – without refutation – without establishing some argument. For the doctrinaire, the mind that needs well established positions, such peace, such silence, can be frightening.

I was knocked over with a rush of relief and thankfulness at the obvious clarity of the figures, the clarity and fluidity of shape and line, the design of the monumental bodies composed into the rock shape and landscape, figure rock and tree. And the sweep of bare rock slopping away on the other side of the hollow, where you can go back and see different aspects of the figures. Looking at these figures I was suddenly, almost forcibly, jerked clean out of the habitual, half-tied vision of things, and an inner clearness, clarity, as if exploding from the rocks themselves, became evident and obvious. The queer evidence of the reclining figure, the smile, the sad smile of Ananda standing with arms folded (much more “imperative” than Da Vinci’s Mona Lisa because completely simple and straightforward).

The thing about all this is that there is no puzzle, no problem and really no “mystery.” All problems are resolved and everything is clear, simply because what matters is clear. The rock, all matter, all life is charged with dharmakaya … everything is emptiness and everything is compassion. I don’t know when in my life I have ever had such a sense of beauty and spiritual validity running together in one aesthetic illumination. … I mean, I know and have seen what I was obscurely looking for. I don’t know what else remains, but I have now seen and have pierced through the surface and have got beyond the shadow and the disguise. …

It says everything, it needs nothing. And because it needs nothing it can afford to be silent, unnoticed, undiscovered. It does not need to be discovered. It is we who need to discover it.

– The Asian Journal of Thomas Merton

rossum

But don’t Buddhists believe that the ultimate goal is to cease to exist?

 

[meltzerboy]

Buddhists believe that the Buddha was a man. That is the point: what one man did, other men can do as well.

Everyone will eventually attain enlightenment. You don’t even have to be a Buddhist to do so (though it does help):

[At Polonnaruwa] I am able to approach the Buddhas barefoot and undisturbed, my feet in wet grass, wet sand. Then the silence of the extraordinary faces. The great smiles. Huge and yet subtle. Filled with every possibility, questioning nothing, knowing everything, rejecting nothing, the peace not of emotional resignation but of sunyata, that has seen through every question without trying to discredit anyone or anything – without refutation – without establishing some argument. For the doctrinaire, the mind that needs well established positions, such peace, such silence, can be frightening.

I was knocked over with a rush of relief and thankfulness at the obvious clarity of the figures, the clarity and fluidity of shape and line, the design of the monumental bodies composed into the rock shape and landscape, figure rock and tree. And the sweep of bare rock slopping away on the other side of the hollow, where you can go back and see different aspects of the figures. Looking at these figures I was suddenly, almost forcibly, jerked clean out of the habitual, half-tied vision of things, and an inner clearness, clarity, as if exploding from the rocks themselves, became evident and obvious. The queer evidence of the reclining figure, the smile, the sad smile of Ananda standing with arms folded (much more “imperative” than Da Vinci’s Mona Lisa because completely simple and straightforward).

The thing about all this is that there is no puzzle, no problem and really no “mystery.” All problems are resolved and everything is clear, simply because what matters is clear. The rock, all matter, all life is charged with dharmakaya … everything is emptiness and everything is compassion. I don’t know when in my life I have ever had such a sense of beauty and spiritual validity running together in one aesthetic illumination. … I mean, I know and have seen what I was obscurely looking for. I don’t know what else remains, but I have now seen and have pierced through the surface and have got beyond the shadow and the disguise. …

It says everything, it needs nothing. And because it needs nothing it can afford to be silent, unnoticed, undiscovered. It does not need to be discovered. It is we who need to discover it.

– The Asian Journal of Thomas Merton

rossum

Aren’t there different levels of enlightenment, and not all can attain the highest level, which the Buddha achieved, no matter how many times they are reincarnated?

 

[meltzerboy]

But don’t Buddhists believe that the ultimate goal is to cease to exist?

I thought the ultimate goal was to lose individual consciousness, which is incomplete, and merge one’s consciousness with the godhead, which is complete. Maybe that is more the goal of Hinduism but I’m not sure.

 

[ChineseCatholic]

I thought the ultimate goal was to lose individual consciousness, which is incomplete, and merge one’s consciousness with the godhead, which is complete. Maybe that is more the goal of Hinduism but I’m not sure.

That’s a very Hindu Idea.

And Peter J is repeating an erroneous idea i see that keeps circulating in the Western Church.

If we stick to the historical Buddha, Siddartha Gautama denies both Eternalism and Annhilationism.

From the Itivuttaka

This was said by the Lord…

Bhikkhus, held by two kinds of views, some devas and human beings hold back and some overreach; only those with vision see.

And how, bhikkhus, do some hold back? Devas and humans enjoy being, delight in being, are satisfied with being. When Dhamma is taught to them for the cessation of being, their minds do not enter into it or acquire confidence in it or settle upon it or become resolved upon it. Thus, bhikkhus, do some hold back.

How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: ‘In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated (ucchijjati) and destroyed and does not exist after death — this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!’ Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach.

How, bhikkhus, do those with vision see? Herein a bhikkhu sees what has come to be as having come to be. Having seen it thus, he practices the course for turning away (nibbidāya), for dispassion (virāgāya), for the cessation (nirodhāya) of what has come to be. Thus, bhikkhus, do those with vision see.

From the Kaccayanagotta Sutta

By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence (atthitañceva) & non-existence (natthitañca). But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, ‘non-existence’ with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, ‘existence’ with reference to the world does not occur to one.

By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances) & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases or obsessions; nor is he resolved on ‘my self.’ He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It’s to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

**"‘Everything exists’: That is one extreme. ‘Everything doesn’t exist’: That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: **From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

 

[ChineseCatholic]

And before someone asks - no i’m not a convert, no i don’t have any particular fascination with Buddhism, anymore than I do with Judaism or Islam.

I stand by a simple principle - I wish people outside of my faith to give it the proper respect it deserves and not go off some red herring of an idea. I’d love it if they’d crack open Thomas Aquinas or Augustine.

But i believe in Reciprocity. So i crack open the Abhidharma-kosa and read through the Pali Canon. I look over the Jurisprudential arguments of the Islamic Madhhab schools. I read the Talmud and Moses Maimonides…

And i do so with adherents of the those faiths who wouldn’t mind having a Catholic friend.

We may not agree - but lets not build Straw Men as to what we are not agreeing on.

 

[ChineseCatholic]

Aren’t there different levels of enlightenment, and not all can attain the highest level, which the Buddha achieved, no matter how many times they are reincarnated?

Hmmm… how to put this.

If we ground this thing in traditional Theravada Buddhism, there are stages of enlightenment as well as different modes of existence.

As time goes on moving forward into Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, additional stages are added - or perhaps its better said that the original stages are subdivided.

Some proponents of the Yogachara school of Buddhist philosophy believe in the thing you just said Meltzer, that there exists Icchantika - a being so base, so material, so won over by their desires that their negative karma accumulation keeps them locked into the cycle of Samsara.

They are essentially Doomed to live in the “Burning House” and repeat the cycle of Samsara.

This has always been a minority opinion, with many of the East Asian schools taking their cue from the Lotus Sutra, which may as well be the primary scripture for Chinese, Korean, and Japanese Buddhism given its centrality.

They opted instead to a position similar to Origen of Alexandria and some of the Early Church Fathers took for my own religion - ** apocatastasis** or universal reconcillation.

In other words - every vile being, every demon, and even the blades of grass will not be abandoned. If the Bodhisattvas have to keep putting off attaining Nirvana/Nibbana for eon upon eon. Even if there is literally only -1- Sentient creature in the whole of the universe that hasn’t achieved Enlightenment…

Everyone who has, everything that has, is going to keep pulling for him/her/it until it does.

No one gets left behind… it just might happen to take a very very very long time to pull off though.

 

[Peter_J]

And Peter J is repeating an erroneous idea i see that keeps circulating in the Western Church.

That may be. Indeed, I’ve always found it hard to believe that nirvana means ceasing to exist. Perhaps the descriptions I’ve heard for the goal of Buddhism were faulty.

 

[rossum]

But don’t Buddhists believe that the ultimate goal is to cease to exist?

The ultimate goal is nirvana. As part of reaching that goal one of the things you realise is that what you thought was your “self” actually isn’t. Your self does not ‘cease to exist’ any more than the water in a mirage ceases to exists when you get closer to it. The water was never really there in the first place. Nor was your ‘self’.

rossum

 

[rossum]

Aren’t there different levels of enlightenment, and not all can attain the highest level, which the Buddha achieved, no matter how many times they are reincarnated?

The Theravada divide the routes to enlightenment into three: Arahant, Paccekabuddha and Sammasambuddha.

An Arahant follows the Buddhist religion and attains enlightenment with all the help and support that the religion provides: monasteries, teachers, scriptures etc.

A Paccekabuddha (private-Buddha) attains enlightenment at a time when the Buddhist religion does not exist, purely through his own efforts. Having become enlightened he does not teach anyone else, but lives his remaining life quietly.

A Sammasambuddha (or full-Buddha) also attains enlightenment through his own efforts when the Buddhist religion does not exist, but goes on to teach others and re-found the religion. The last Sammasambuddha was Siddhatta Gautama Shakya. Eventually the religion he re-founded will die out and the next Sammasambuddha, the Buddha Maitreya, will re-found it again.

rossum

 

[abucs]

In Buddhist thought (I know a very expansive phrase) does anyone, or can anyone know all things, even if in theory?

Or perhaps a similar question asked in a different way, are there limitations to having ‘all knowledge’ in Buddhist thought?

God bless.

 

[anon99031074]

In Buddhist thought (I know a very expansive phrase) does anyone, or can anyone know all things, even if in theory?

Or perhaps a similar question asked in a different way, are there limitations to having ‘all knowledge’ in Buddhist thought?

God bless.

“There is no recluse or brahmin who knows all, who sees all, simultaneously; that is not possible” (MN 90:8)

“Venereable sir, I have heard this: 'The recluse Gotama [Buddha] claims to be omniscient and all-seeing, to have complete knowledge and vision this: ‘Whether I am walking or standing or sleeping or awake, knowledge and vision are continuously and uninterruptedly present to me.’ Venerable sir, do those who speak thus say what has been said by the Blessed One, and not misrepresent him with what is contrary to fact? Do they explain in accordence with the Dhamma in such a way that nothing which provides a ground for censure can be legitimately deduced from their assertion?” “Vaccha, those who say thus do not say what has been said by me, but misrepresent me with what is untrue and contrary to fact.” (…) “Vaccha, if you answer thus: ‘The recluse Gotama has the threefold true knowledge’, you will be saying what has been said by me” (…).

“For in so far as I wish, I recollect my manifold past lives, that is one birth, two births, three births, four births, five births, ten births, twenty births, thirty births, forty births, fifty births, a hundred births, a thousand births, a hundred thousand births , many aeons of world-contraction, many aeons of world-expansion, many aeons of world-contraction and expansion(…)Thus with their aspects and particulars I recollect my manifold past lives.”

“And in so far as I wish, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I see beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and I understand how beings pass onn according to their actions” (…)

“And by realizing for myself with direct knowedge, I here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints.” (MN 71:5-9)