Bureaucratic penance?

[seekdatruth]

I’m trying to get my current marriage blessed. In order to do that I need to get an annulment for my first marriage. I was told, “It’s simple” because he and I were not married in the Catholic Church and he is not, nor ever has been Catholic or any other religion, nor baptized as such, that I know of. I was baptized and confirmed in the CC. I have my confirmation certificate and a picture of me in my 1st communion dress, but i still need the actual certificates of baptism and 1st communion. Contacted the church where I was baptized and found out they not only keep record of a person’s baptism, but every other sacrament they ever have during their life. unfortunately, they lost my 1ts communion certificate, but have record of my confirmation, which I wouldn’t have had if not receiving communion. They should have any record of any marriage i had in the church too, right? So why can’t someone here just call and ask? No, I have to get the original marriage certificate, which, hello, don’t have, I’m divorced and had no idea I’d ever need that thing again, which I’ve written to that state to request a copy…who knows if and when that’ll ever show up. I just hope I don’t have to prove this guy was not Catholic too. He hides from me because he knows he did me wrong and thinks I’d sue him for all the money he stole and damage to my credit. i don’t care anymore, I never want to see or talk to him again even if I could. I don’t know how on earth i could prove anything about him like where he was baptized or if he never was.
It just seems ridiculous. Sure, I was wrong for doing all the stupid things I did in the past, and I’m SORRY. All I’m doing is just trying to get back to Communion again and get my current marriage blessed. It never mattered to me before, I never believed it was REAL. It was all just an oppressive, controlling bunch of lies as far as I knew back then. All the Protestants seemed to be having much more fun and they told me it was fake, and besides, nearly everyone I knew were “cafeteria” Catholics anyway. I figured, “Why should I follow hypocrites?” So yeah, now I’m not so sure what I’m doing, not for any other reason but silly paperwork.

 

[Phemie]

You are the one petitioning for a decree of nullity so it’s your responsibility to provide the documents the Tribunal requires. In your case, it’s probably a simple ‘invalid due to lack of canonical form’ (IOW, you didn’t follow the rules that all Catholics have to follow when it comes to marriage). For that they require proof that you were baptized and that you have no valid marriage recorded, proof of your marriage outside the Church and proof of your divorce.

Yes, your baptismal parish should have a record of any ‘recordable’ sacrament you have received. That does not necessarily include First Communion and, unlike Confirmation and Marriage, it is not included on your Certificate of Baptism even in parishes that keep a record of First Communions.

No, you wouldn’t necessarily have received First Communion just because you were confirmed although for the great majority that is the case.

 

[cameron_lansing]

I would encourage you to settle your mind and trust that the diocese will know how to proceed and assist you. No one is out to punish anyone, just to be certain about the facts for the sake of the sanctity of marriage. To the contrary, we are happy about your return and that you seek to do the right thing.

"They should have any record of any should have any record of any marriage i had in the church too, right?

That’s true, but you did not marry in the Church so there will be no notation of that in your baptismal record. If your marriage were later convalidated or sanated, that would be in your baptismal record though, and then the lack of the Catholic form of marriage would have been remedied.

The parish can establish your Catholic baptism by an authentic record. It is that fact that bound you to the Catholic form of marriage. I have no idea why anyone is asking for evidence of first communion and confirmation. Those are not relevant to the requirement of the Catholic form of marriage.

Civil copies of marriage certificates usually take relatively little time to be obtained once requested.

The ecclesiastical record of your Catholic baptism and the civil marriage certificate are used to establish with certainty that you were obligated to the Catholic form of marriage and that you did not observe it. The ecclesiastical and the civil certificates will be authentic copies. They are not original documents but their contents are extracted from the record and notarized by a Church and civil authority respectively.

Since your Catholicity bound you to canonical form, the religious or baptismal status of your former spouse is wholly irrelevant.

God bless you.

 

[Spirithound]

I’m trying to get my current marriage blessed. In order to do that I need to get an annulment for my first marriage. I was told, “It’s simple” because he and I were not married in the Catholic Church and he is not, nor ever has been Catholic or any other religion, nor baptized as such, that I know of. I was baptized and confirmed in the CC. I have my confirmation certificate and a picture of me in my 1st communion dress, but i still need the actual certificates of baptism and 1st communion. Contacted the church where I was baptized and found out they not only keep record of a person’s baptism, but every other sacrament they ever have during their life. unfortunately, they lost my 1ts communion certificate, but have record of my confirmation, which I wouldn’t have had if not receiving communion. They should have any record of any marriage i had in the church too, right? So why can’t someone here just call and ask? No, I have to get the original marriage certificate, which, hello, don’t have, I’m divorced and had no idea I’d ever need that thing again, which I’ve written to that state to request a copy…who knows if and when that’ll ever show up. I just hope I don’t have to prove this guy was not Catholic too. He hides from me because he knows he did me wrong and thinks I’d sue him for all the money he stole and damage to my credit. i don’t care anymore, I never want to see or talk to him again even if I could. I don’t know how on earth i could prove anything about him like where he was baptized or if he never was.
It just seems ridiculous. Sure, I was wrong for doing all the stupid things I did in the past, and I’m SORRY. All I’m doing is just trying to get back to Communion again and get my current marriage blessed. It never mattered to me before, I never believed it was REAL. It was all just an oppressive, controlling bunch of lies as far as I knew back then. All the Protestants seemed to be having much more fun and they told me it was fake, and besides, nearly everyone I knew were “cafeteria” Catholics anyway. I figured, “Why should I follow hypocrites?” So yeah, now I’m not so sure what I’m doing, not for any other reason but silly paperwork.

Hello sister, I’m not a canon lawyer or really educated much at all in this area, but I’ve read alot of the other threads of this nature, and perhaps someone else will help out too.

I think all you would need to do is show that you are Catholic, and that only need involve your Baptism, and that you were married outside the Church. When we are baptized, we actually remain Catholic unless we petition the bishop to remove our name from the rolls, so baptism certificate should be all that’s required for that proof.

Once Catholic, we are required to abide by the Church’s teaching regarding marriage, so if you were married outside the Church while still Catholic, you marriage is objectively null, and that should go through quickly.

Please talk to your priest and he will guide you. Let him know that you can’t find your cert for 1st Holy Communion, and ask if that really matters.
BTW, Confirmation is possible without first receiving Communion.
Peace and blessings

 

[maryj]

Dear seek, sounds as if that first marriage was not joined by God. What God has joined, let no man seperate. Have faith, pray for patience and consolation. All that is good comes from God. Seeking to do the right thing can sometimes put you in the way of evil. The devil hates nothing more than for one of God’s children to return to Him. Stay close to your faith and ask for the Holy Spirit to guide you.God Bless and keep you, on your journey.

 

[pigtown]

Dear seek, sounds as if that first marriage was not joined by God. What God has joined, let no man seperate. Have faith, pray for patience and consolation. All that is good comes from God. Seeking to do the right thing can sometimes put you in the way of evil. The devil hates nothing more than for one of God’s children to return to Him. Stay close to your faith and ask for the Holy Spirit to guide you.God Bless and keep you, on your journey.

I really liked your statement “sounds as if that first marriage was not joined by God”. I married my first husband in the RC Church. He began to beat me a week after our wedding (we were even in a foreign country since he was in the military). Since I refused to use birth control I got pregnant right away and after that first child was born I had another less than a year and a half later. He even beat me within a few days after our second child was born. I finally divorced him, took my children and made a new life for us. I had a friend who was a Bishop in the Old Catholic Episcopal Church. When I talked to him he said that since God doe not make mistakes, there is no way He would have sanctioned my first marriage. He performed the ceremony uniting my present husband and I. We have been married for more than 30 years! There is life after divorce!

 

[Sheeniac]

Do you have the actual paperwork to file the annulment? I too am having an annulment done for Lack of Valid form.

I needed my original baptism certificate, marriage certificate, and divorce certificate. Nothing for 1st communion was needed, nor was anything for my confirmation (which I just made a year ago).

If you are getting things together ahead of time, you might want to get the actual form prior to getting overly stressed.

If it takes some time, then so be it. My marriage certificate took time to get because my first wedding was done in St. Thomas. So, it can be done. Please don’t get discouraged.

 

[puzzleannie]

You failed to comply with Catholic canon law regarding your first marriage. Heaven be praised, and congragulations, you now wish to bring your current situation in line with canon law, with the proper end and purpose of returning to the fullness of the sacraments. Welcome Home!

yes a canon law procedure is required, like most legal procedures it requires paperwork, and obtaining it is usually the biggest cause of delay. Reminder to all: maintain records of important life events. Parishes are not required to record first communions, they are required to record baptism, confirmation, marriage and religious profession.

You must ask your baptismal parish to provide a new certified record of your baptism and all sacraments received, which they will do. The notations on the back will show confirmation but obviouisly no marriage.

If you are confirmed you are assumed to have received first communion and are not required to furnish proof. If the secretary does not know that, go to someone higher up. If you were confirmed as an infant at baptism, your simple testimony that you did receive first communion is enough.

you also need your original marriage certificate and the divorce papers, and if possible record or testimony that your ex either was or was not baptized.

yes it is legal paperwork, yes it is a hassle, yes it is necessary. Your pastor has the solemn duty before God to insure that your current marriage is valid and he is doing that. God bless you. prepare for the wave of graces flowing into your family as you come to the marvelous holy sacraments of Christ’s Presence.

btw you are preparing for a declaration of invalidity of marriage due to lack of form. this is NOT an annulment.

none of this is penance for your sins (if any). That will come when you are able to return to the sacrament of penance.

did your regard all the details surrounding your divorce as a hassle, or as necessary to remedy a harmful situation? same thing

 

[seekdatruth]

Thanks for that perspective!
Yes, I think maybe some of this is one misinformed secretary from what you’ve said.
I will keep working on it.

 

[FrDavid96]

I’m trying to get my current marriage blessed. In order to do that I need to get an annulment for my first marriage. I was told, “It’s simple” because he and I were not married in the Catholic Church and he is not, nor ever has been Catholic or any other religion, nor baptized as such, that I know of. I was baptized and confirmed in the CC. I have my confirmation certificate and a picture of me in my 1st communion dress, but i still need the actual certificates of baptism and 1st communion. Contacted the church where I was baptized and found out they not only keep record of a person’s baptism, but every other sacrament they ever have during their life. unfortunately, they lost my 1ts communion certificate, but have record of my confirmation, which I wouldn’t have had if not receiving communion. They should have any record of any marriage i had in the church too, right? So why can’t someone here just call and ask? No, I have to get the original marriage certificate, which, hello, don’t have, I’m divorced and had no idea I’d ever need that thing again, which I’ve written to that state to request a copy…who knows if and when that’ll ever show up. I just hope I don’t have to prove this guy was not Catholic too. He hides from me because he knows he did me wrong and thinks I’d sue him for all the money he stole and damage to my credit. i don’t care anymore, I never want to see or talk to him again even if I could. I don’t know how on earth i could prove anything about him like where he was baptized or if he never was.
It just seems ridiculous. Sure, I was wrong for doing all the stupid things I did in the past, and I’m SORRY. All I’m doing is just trying to get back to Communion again and get my current marriage blessed. It never mattered to me before, I never believed it was REAL. It was all just an oppressive, controlling bunch of lies as far as I knew back then. All the Protestants seemed to be having much more fun and they told me it was fake, and besides, nearly everyone I knew were “cafeteria” Catholics anyway. I figured, “Why should I follow hypocrites?” So yeah, now I’m not so sure what I’m doing, not for any other reason but silly paperwork.

For the petition of nullity a new baptismal record is always required (issued within the last 3 to 6 months in most cases). When you were told you needed the “original” certificate that word can be a bit misleading. What they were asking for is the “original” form bearing the raised seal of the parish, as opposed to a photocopy of it–not the “original” certificate that was issued years ago when you were baptised.

The same holds true for the “original” marriage certificate. This doesn’t necessarily mean the original paper, but a legal “sealed” document from the state, again as opposed to a photocopy of it. Sometimes a state will re-issue the document by making a copy of the original and then “certify” that copy. The Church isn’t looking for old documents, but wants to make sure that the documents themselves are authentic.

 

[seekdatruth]

For the petition of nullity a new baptismal record is always required (issued within the last 3 to 6 months in most cases). When you were told you needed the “original” certificate that word can be a bit misleading. What they were asking for is the “original” form bearing the raised seal of the parish, as opposed to a photocopy of it–not the “original” certificate that was issued years ago when you were baptised.

The same holds true for the “original” marriage certificate. This doesn’t necessarily mean the original paper, but a legal “sealed” document from the state, again as opposed to a photocopy of it. Sometimes a state will re-issue the document by making a copy of the original and then “certify” that copy. The Church isn’t looking for old documents, but wants to make sure that the documents themselves are authentic.

Makes sense, I guess. Wish they had filled out the back of my baptism certificate they sent me! Thanks though.

 

[Phemie]

Makes sense, I guess. Wish they had filled out the back of my baptism certificate they sent me! Thanks though.

It’s possible they don’t have the information. Were you baptized and confirmed in the same parish? I’ve found through the 10 years I’ve worked at this that sometimes parishes forget to send the notice of confirmation to the baptismal parish.

In your case the only thing that would have been noted is your confirmation since you weren’t married in the church. Oh, and everyone here always says ‘the back of the certificate’ but that all depends on the format used by your parish. All those notations are on the front of the baptismal certificates issued by my birth parish and by the parish I work for.

I’ve also noticed that in our parish most of the confirmations and marriages that are entered in the baptismal register are those celebrated outside the parish. It was only after several years on the job that I discovered that I had to check both the confirmation and marriage registers whenever I issued a baptismal certificate just to be sure that all the information was entered on it. It’s really annoying to find that through the years many people didn’t deal with the registers in the way they were supposed to.

 

[seekdatruth]

It’s possible they don’t have the information. Were you baptized and confirmed in the same parish? I’ve found through the 10 years I’ve worked at this that sometimes parishes forget to send the notice of confirmation to the baptismal parish.

In your case the only thing that would have been noted is your confirmation since you weren’t married in the church. Oh, and everyone here always says ‘the back of the certificate’ but that all depends on the format used by your parish. All those notations are on the front of the baptismal certificates issued by my birth parish and by the parish I work for.

I’ve also noticed that in our parish most of the confirmations and marriages that are entered in the baptismal register are those celebrated outside the parish. It was only after several years on the job that I discovered that I had to check both the confirmation and marriage registers whenever I issued a baptismal certificate just to be sure that all the information was entered on it. It’s really annoying to find that through the years many people didn’t deal with the registers in the way they were supposed to.

I was baptized and had 1st communion in one church, then moved and confirmed at another church. Funny thing, when the church I was confirmed at called to update my baptismal record at the 1st church, they crossed through my original communion date and replaced it with my confirmation date! So it looks like I was never confirmed and had 1st communion only at age 14! lol! That base is covered though, since I have my certificate and the confirming church has it in their record book too. Whew! Confusing? lol! Someone got a little confused 20 years ago at the 1st church, obviously.