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soflochristmas
Guest
Wow is this chapter rich in Christological typology!!! It’s beautiful.
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Church_Militant
Guest
I think this passage is a good example! It certainly sounds like the kind of things that were said about Our Lord.
12 Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training. 13 He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD. 14 To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us, 15 Because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways. 16 He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father. 17 Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. 18 For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. 19 With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. 20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."
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Nita
Guest
I thought the first 9 verses seem to reflect the type of thinking that might apply to many atheists or those who do not believe in an afterlife. But from verse 10 on the passage definitely seems to be a prophecy of the thoughts & words of those who would oppose Our Lord and seek His death.
I looked for Gospel passages that seem to fulfill some of the Wisdom prophecies. Here are a few that I came up with. Perhaps someone else can think of others to add.
(After the raising of Lazarus)
John 11:47, 48, & 53: So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the council, and said, “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs. If we let him go on thus, every one will believe in Him, and…” ………So from that day on they took counsel how to put Him to death.
(Healing of the paralytic: Mt. 9:1-8; Mk 2:1-12; Lk 5:17-26)
Mt. 9:3-4 And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?
(After the parable of the Wicked Tenants: Mt. 21:33-46; Lk 12:1-12; Lk 20: 9-20)
Mt. 21:45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking about them.
Lk 20:19b-20 …for they perceived that He had told this parable against them. So they watched Him, and sent spies, who pretended to be sincere, that they might take hold of what He said, so as to deliver Him up to the authority and jurisdiction of the governor.
(At Our Lord’s Crucifixion: Mt. 27:39-43; Mk 15:29-31; Lk 23:35-37)
Mt: 39-43 And those who passed by derided Him, wagging their heads and saying “You who would destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders mocked Him saying, "He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in Him. He trusts in God; let God deliver Him now, if He desires Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ "
Nita
I looked for Gospel passages that seem to fulfill some of the Wisdom prophecies. Here are a few that I came up with. Perhaps someone else can think of others to add.
(After the raising of Lazarus)
John 11:47, 48, & 53: So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the council, and said, “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs. If we let him go on thus, every one will believe in Him, and…” ………So from that day on they took counsel how to put Him to death.
(Healing of the paralytic: Mt. 9:1-8; Mk 2:1-12; Lk 5:17-26)
Mt. 9:3-4 And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?
(After the parable of the Wicked Tenants: Mt. 21:33-46; Lk 12:1-12; Lk 20: 9-20)
Mt. 21:45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking about them.
Lk 20:19b-20 …for they perceived that He had told this parable against them. So they watched Him, and sent spies, who pretended to be sincere, that they might take hold of what He said, so as to deliver Him up to the authority and jurisdiction of the governor.
(At Our Lord’s Crucifixion: Mt. 27:39-43; Mk 15:29-31; Lk 23:35-37)
Mt: 39-43 And those who passed by derided Him, wagging their heads and saying “You who would destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders mocked Him saying, "He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in Him. He trusts in God; let God deliver Him now, if He desires Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ "
Nita
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greenleaf
Guest
Can you tell me why the Book of Wisdom is not in my version of the Bible and what Bible versions it can be found in?
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adolfo123
Guest
the book of wisdom is not in your bible because you have a protestant bible … 7 books where removed in the course of the reformation… get a catholic bible like the new American new Jerusalem or get a new revised standard bible catholic edition…
chapter 2 i sometimes used to show my friend how the reformation was wrong in taking books out of the bible… I really like the prophecy which gets fulfilled in the new testament…
are you protestant or just a catholic with a protestant bible?
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adolfo123
Guest
new american bible :[12-20] Often applied to the Passion of our Lord; many have understood these verses as a direct prophecy. Cf Matthew 27:41-44
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greenleaf
Guest
I am a Catholic with a protestant Bible (unknowingly). I recently noticed that there were readings at Mass from the Book of Wisdom and have become very interested in it. We have a Bible at our Adoration chapel that has the Book of Wisdom and I have been reading it there.
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Nita
Guest
I also think of Mary when I read these verses (and the Suffering Servant chapter 53 in Isaiah).
We know from her Magnificat (Lk 1:46-55) that she was familiar with Scripture. Had she read/heard the Isaiah and Wisdom passages? Did she know from the start (Our Lord’s conception) that they applied to Jesus? If so, the “sword” that would pierce her soul (Lk 2:35) was already present when Simeon spoke those words.
Nita
We know from her Magnificat (Lk 1:46-55) that she was familiar with Scripture. Had she read/heard the Isaiah and Wisdom passages? Did she know from the start (Our Lord’s conception) that they applied to Jesus? If so, the “sword” that would pierce her soul (Lk 2:35) was already present when Simeon spoke those words.
Nita
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JAGCath28
Guest
Thank you for sharing that! Isn’t it amazing!
J
JAGCath28
Guest
On another level, I think verse 10 and on could also be describing how a Christian should be perceived when around the wicked. We are called to be like Christ. (Eph 5: 1-2)
Verse 15 stuck out in my mind
“Because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways.”
In our RENEW group, we were talking about the difference between Christian love and non-Christian love. What sets us apart from the rest of the world is our calling to love our enemies. It is easy to love your those that love you back, but we are asked to go that step further and love our enemies.
Verse 15 stuck out in my mind
“Because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways.”
In our RENEW group, we were talking about the difference between Christian love and non-Christian love. What sets us apart from the rest of the world is our calling to love our enemies. It is easy to love your those that love you back, but we are asked to go that step further and love our enemies.
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Canardmom85
Guest
Also, I found it interesting to note that some of these consisted of the seven deadly sin…Greed, Pride…
9 Let no meadow be free from our wantonness;
8 let us crown ourselves with rosebuds ere they wither.
9 Let no meadow be free from our wantonness;
8 let us crown ourselves with rosebuds ere they wither.
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Marycruz
Guest
I find it very interesting how the description in verses 1-9 can still apply to a lot of people today. A lot of people life with the “carpe diem” philosophy, meaning that because life is short it’s just about having a good time without thinking about the consequences of your actions. I guess some things never change!
Also impressive is how the rest of the chapter pretty much sums up what happened to Jesus! However, we should also see it as an example to follow, and have a “manner of life” that is “unlike to that of others”
Also impressive is how the rest of the chapter pretty much sums up what happened to Jesus! However, we should also see it as an example to follow, and have a “manner of life” that is “unlike to that of others”
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
I am reading along in the Douay Rheims Challoner with a New American at hand. You can link to the DRC here: ccel.org/c/challoner/douayrheims/dr.html
As for the 7 missing books, I believe Luther did not actually remove them but he relegated them to endnote status. It was later, from memory, some time in the 1800s that they were removed from one of many versions of the King James. But that is another topic.
I am struck with the poignancy of Chapter 2. In a way it is so carpe deum. Life is short so seize the day.
I mean this sort of thinking is of the flesh, but in a way which leaves me comforted that I am understood for being … well, what I am. I guess that this prefigures Someone Who would come someday and who would not try to destroy me for being wrong and weak…
not try to destroy me for being wrong and weak…
but understand me… see me… know me… love me… save me…
Even forgetting that and clutching the comfort of a notion that… Life is short, Art is long… speech a spark to move our heart…
not a Word to change our heart… but a word to move our heart… a false persuasion of Genuine Life.
… and blocking my escape:
How I have strived to leave something worthwhile behind, something beautiful, something useful. And, if the truth be known, envied those who did. But those who did also had… an interior life… like me, and I am sure that they knew or feared that they, like me, were wrong and weak too.
And then the progression from mere poignancy, from mere comfort and clinging, clutching, to *cynicism, despair, destruction: *the fruit of forgetfulness?
That is so sad. You know I put Klimpt’s The Tree of Life (The Fall) into my siggy, but I couldn’t bear to look at it even though it was beautiful.
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txlassy
Guest
Someone once told me that we look at the length of our lives wrong. That our time here on earth is such a short time compared to what will happen after our death. That if you could look at it on a piece of string (that could go on forever) our lives would be right next to the beginning of the string and then when you looked down the string you would realize you could see only a tiny bit of it before it went off into eternity. Also that in that short time we should be preparing (not the right word I don’t think, but right now I can’t think of another) for the what comes after.
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