K
keenanpa
Guest
How are we to interpret Matthew 23:9, “And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.”
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G
geezerbob
Guest
Why don’t you do a search of this and the apologetics forums. This has been discussed, explained, and refuted ad nauseum.
B
BibleReader
Guest
It means, “Be humble.”
Calling priests “father” is not a mark of the anti-Christ, or some Protestant Fundamentalist concept like that.
Proof: If Matthew 23:9 were meant to be taken literally by Fundamentalists, why would Paul write this, in 1 Timothy 5:1?..
1] Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
I put that in boldface type, not because I’m “angry” at you for asking the question, but rather to get the attention of Fundamentalists in this site, who ask this question again and again and again and again, to try to prove that the Catholic Church is evil.
L
Lazerlike42
Guest
Please see lazerliek42.tripod.com/ever.htm for a list of Bible passages indicating that Paul, Peter, and John were all called father.
J
JCPhoenix
Guest
Definitely do a search.
This is not a new question.
I will say this, however: The Jews refer to Abraham as their father, and indeed, he is our father also.
You probably refer to you dad as “Father”, or even “Dad” which is just another word for saying “Father”.
When we refer to our priests as “Father”, we are recognizing their authority as spiritual fathers, as head of our respective parishes.
You have to understand…the priests are married to the Church. In the Latin Rite, when they are ordained, it is a wedding ceremony between the bride of Christ, (The Church), and the priest. We the faithful become his family and we go to him for direction, for forgiveness, and to recieve the sacraments. We welcome him to our homes as one of our own, and he welcoms us into the house of God as we are his own children.
The Church is feminine in appearance and practice, and if you honestly study Catholicism you will recognize that.
What is the fruit of the union between the priest and the Church? Why, more faithful souls, of course. More gifts of the Holy Spirit, more spiritual children and souls won for Christ.
The Priest is our Father and I will happily call him so until the day I die and by the very leadership of our very holy priests am led into the arms of our Father in Heaven.
I pray every day I will not die without a spiritual father by my side to help me meet my judgment.
And that is how we Catholics interpret this passage. I wish you well and many blessings on your journey.
This is not a new question.
I will say this, however: The Jews refer to Abraham as their father, and indeed, he is our father also.
You probably refer to you dad as “Father”, or even “Dad” which is just another word for saying “Father”.
When we refer to our priests as “Father”, we are recognizing their authority as spiritual fathers, as head of our respective parishes.
You have to understand…the priests are married to the Church. In the Latin Rite, when they are ordained, it is a wedding ceremony between the bride of Christ, (The Church), and the priest. We the faithful become his family and we go to him for direction, for forgiveness, and to recieve the sacraments. We welcome him to our homes as one of our own, and he welcoms us into the house of God as we are his own children.
The Church is feminine in appearance and practice, and if you honestly study Catholicism you will recognize that.
What is the fruit of the union between the priest and the Church? Why, more faithful souls, of course. More gifts of the Holy Spirit, more spiritual children and souls won for Christ.
The Priest is our Father and I will happily call him so until the day I die and by the very leadership of our very holy priests am led into the arms of our Father in Heaven.
I pray every day I will not die without a spiritual father by my side to help me meet my judgment.
And that is how we Catholics interpret this passage. I wish you well and many blessings on your journey.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
One thing that would really help you out a lot is you’d have a look at the ma(name removed by moderator)age Library , since this common question has a whole tract ready to go on it there. You can print it out and give it to the person who asked you this or copy/paste it into an e-mail or just link it in a post on the forum that you got the question from.
Here ya go: Call No Man Father
Pax tecum,
B
blackfish152
Guest
Here is some website which looks very good.
matt1618.freeyellow.com/father.html
also from an online “Cheat sheet”
Calling no man “Father”
Spiritual fatherhood is an Old and New Testament reality.
**§ Our Father, David: Mark 11:9-10 **
§ Fathers & Prophets: Luke 6:23, Romans 9:3-5, Romans 11:28, 1 Corinthians 10:1, Galatians 1:14
§ Abraham our forefather: Romans 4:1
§ Father Abraham: Romans 4:11-18
§ Paul’s spiritual fatherhood, I Corinthians 4:14-17 (I have begotten you – become your father – through the Gospel), Galatians 4:19-20, 1 Philippians 2:19-22, Thessalonians 2:11-12, 1 Timothy 1:2, Philemon 1:10
§ Treat the elders (presbyteros – priests) as fathers: 1 Timothy 5:1
matt1618.freeyellow.com/father.html
also from an online “Cheat sheet”
Calling no man “Father”
Spiritual fatherhood is an Old and New Testament reality.
**§ Our Father, David: Mark 11:9-10 **
§ Fathers & Prophets: Luke 6:23, Romans 9:3-5, Romans 11:28, 1 Corinthians 10:1, Galatians 1:14
§ Abraham our forefather: Romans 4:1
§ Father Abraham: Romans 4:11-18
§ Paul’s spiritual fatherhood, I Corinthians 4:14-17 (I have begotten you – become your father – through the Gospel), Galatians 4:19-20, 1 Philippians 2:19-22, Thessalonians 2:11-12, 1 Timothy 1:2, Philemon 1:10
§ Treat the elders (presbyteros – priests) as fathers: 1 Timothy 5:1
B
blackfish152
Guest
Here is an email which I wrote(in part) the rest is taken from an excellent apologetics site, which I dont have off hand unfortunately.
Greetings *Pastor *
In discussion with a Roman Catholic priest , I noticed that you did not refer to him as father. This annoyed me. I thought the old “call no man father” argument, was dead, but it seems it is alive and well.
From a study of the entire body of revealed scripture, I hope to demonstrate to you that it is entirely scriptural to call a Priest, father.
Ephesians 6:2-4: “‘Honour your father and mother that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth. Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.’ Wouldn’t you say your father is someone on this earth? But Jesus said ‘call no man your father on earth.’ Jesus did not say ‘call no man father on earth except your biological father.’ Is this a contradiction?" you ask.
You may say that clearly, in Matthew 23, Jesus is speaking in the context of calling religious leaders ‘father.’ "
"So you’re saying that when Jesus said ‘call no man your father on earth,’ He didn’t mean that in an absolute and all-encompassing way? We have an exception when it comes to our biological fathers.
Listen to the very words of Our Lord in Luke 16:24: ‘And he [the rich man] called out, Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ Would you say Abraham is a religious leader, Pastor?"
“Not only does Jesus refer to Abraham as ‘father,’ but St. James does likewise in James 2:21, as does St. Paul, calling Abraham ‘father’ seven times in Romans 4:1-18. Are we to believe Jesus, St. James and St. Paul are contradicting Matthew 23:9?”
Perhaps you will try to salvage this by saying, it’s okay to refer to someone who has gone before us in the faith as ‘father.’ They are our ‘fathers’ in the faith. But this is a far cry from giving our living leaders today the title of ‘father,’ which, according to Matthew 23:9, is reserved to God alone."
But it is possible to demonstrate to you it is in fact Biblical to call our living spiritual leaders ‘father’?
Twice in 1 John 2:13-14, St. John calls the leaders of the Church to which he is writing ‘fathers’: ‘I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, children, because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning.’
In Acts 7:1-2, St. Stephen, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as shown in Acts 7:55, calls both Abraham and the elders of Jerusalem ‘father’: 'And the high priest said, “Is this so?” And Stephen said: 'Brethren and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham.
And in 1 Corinthians 4:14-15, St. Paul refers to himself as ‘father’: ‘I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.’ Time does not allow me to quote to you 1 Thessalonians 2:11, John 4:12, Acts 4:25 and Romans 9:10. All of these verses refer to men, whether alive at the time or not, as ‘father.’
Greetings *Pastor *
In discussion with a Roman Catholic priest , I noticed that you did not refer to him as father. This annoyed me. I thought the old “call no man father” argument, was dead, but it seems it is alive and well.
From a study of the entire body of revealed scripture, I hope to demonstrate to you that it is entirely scriptural to call a Priest, father.
Ephesians 6:2-4: “‘Honour your father and mother that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth. Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.’ Wouldn’t you say your father is someone on this earth? But Jesus said ‘call no man your father on earth.’ Jesus did not say ‘call no man father on earth except your biological father.’ Is this a contradiction?" you ask.
You may say that clearly, in Matthew 23, Jesus is speaking in the context of calling religious leaders ‘father.’ "
"So you’re saying that when Jesus said ‘call no man your father on earth,’ He didn’t mean that in an absolute and all-encompassing way? We have an exception when it comes to our biological fathers.
Listen to the very words of Our Lord in Luke 16:24: ‘And he [the rich man] called out, Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ Would you say Abraham is a religious leader, Pastor?"
“Not only does Jesus refer to Abraham as ‘father,’ but St. James does likewise in James 2:21, as does St. Paul, calling Abraham ‘father’ seven times in Romans 4:1-18. Are we to believe Jesus, St. James and St. Paul are contradicting Matthew 23:9?”
Perhaps you will try to salvage this by saying, it’s okay to refer to someone who has gone before us in the faith as ‘father.’ They are our ‘fathers’ in the faith. But this is a far cry from giving our living leaders today the title of ‘father,’ which, according to Matthew 23:9, is reserved to God alone."
But it is possible to demonstrate to you it is in fact Biblical to call our living spiritual leaders ‘father’?
Twice in 1 John 2:13-14, St. John calls the leaders of the Church to which he is writing ‘fathers’: ‘I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, children, because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning.’
In Acts 7:1-2, St. Stephen, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as shown in Acts 7:55, calls both Abraham and the elders of Jerusalem ‘father’: 'And the high priest said, “Is this so?” And Stephen said: 'Brethren and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham.
And in 1 Corinthians 4:14-15, St. Paul refers to himself as ‘father’: ‘I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.’ Time does not allow me to quote to you 1 Thessalonians 2:11, John 4:12, Acts 4:25 and Romans 9:10. All of these verses refer to men, whether alive at the time or not, as ‘father.’
B
blackfish152
Guest
The final Point… "In Matthew 23:8, one verse earlier than the text in question, it says to call no man ‘teacher.’ And yet, we know there are many who are called ‘teacher’ in the New Testament, for instance in James 3:1 and Ephesians 4:11.
The real key to understanding Matthew 23, is found in a proper understanding of the nature of the Body of Christ. The Douay Rheims translation of Ephesians 3:14-15 expresses it well. ‘For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom all paternity [Greek: paternia, English: fatherhood] in heaven and earth is named.’ God the Father is our one, true Father. All other fatherhood, be it biological or spiritual, participates in His unique Fatherhood and represents it to us. Our biological and spiritual fathers neither take away nor add to this one unique Fatherhood. Rather, they establish it on earth.
The context of Matthew 23 shows that it’s addressing the sin of pride among the scribes and Pharisees. They loved to be called ‘teacher’ and ‘father.’ But in their pride, they pointed to themselves rather than to God the Father, from Whom they received true fatherhood, and in Whom their fatherhood subsisted. Outside of God the Father, there are no fathers at all in the true sense of the term.
Perhaps this is a relevant point to look at the word pastor; a study of etymology shows it to mean Shepard, to lead to pasture, from the Latin *Pastorem. *
Just as there is One Shepard (Christ), you who claim to be a pastor, i.e. a spiritual Shepard- I don’t see this as a claim to be infringing on Christs role as shepherd, But rather a sharing in, participation in a secondary derivative sense of course, as in the same context as the father-from The Father in Heaven
His (the protestant minister whom I sent this too) only reply, was that this priest in question, he felt did not deserve to be called his spiritual father as he did not agree with his theology. As catholics, who agree with the theology of our priests, then any one who follows the logic outlined above,will have no argument for calling a priest, father.
The real key to understanding Matthew 23, is found in a proper understanding of the nature of the Body of Christ. The Douay Rheims translation of Ephesians 3:14-15 expresses it well. ‘For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom all paternity [Greek: paternia, English: fatherhood] in heaven and earth is named.’ God the Father is our one, true Father. All other fatherhood, be it biological or spiritual, participates in His unique Fatherhood and represents it to us. Our biological and spiritual fathers neither take away nor add to this one unique Fatherhood. Rather, they establish it on earth.
The context of Matthew 23 shows that it’s addressing the sin of pride among the scribes and Pharisees. They loved to be called ‘teacher’ and ‘father.’ But in their pride, they pointed to themselves rather than to God the Father, from Whom they received true fatherhood, and in Whom their fatherhood subsisted. Outside of God the Father, there are no fathers at all in the true sense of the term.
Perhaps this is a relevant point to look at the word pastor; a study of etymology shows it to mean Shepard, to lead to pasture, from the Latin *Pastorem. *
Just as there is One Shepard (Christ), you who claim to be a pastor, i.e. a spiritual Shepard- I don’t see this as a claim to be infringing on Christs role as shepherd, But rather a sharing in, participation in a secondary derivative sense of course, as in the same context as the father-from The Father in Heaven
His (the protestant minister whom I sent this too) only reply, was that this priest in question, he felt did not deserve to be called his spiritual father as he did not agree with his theology. As catholics, who agree with the theology of our priests, then any one who follows the logic outlined above,will have no argument for calling a priest, father.
J
JCPhoenix
Guest
His (the protestant minister whom I sent this too) only reply, was that this priest in question, he felt did not deserve to be called his spiritual father as he did not agree with his theology. As catholics, who agree with the theology of our priests, then any one who follows the logic outlined above,will have no argument for calling a priest, father
The protestant minister, then, by his logic, should not enjoy the title of Pastor from anyone but his own parishioners.
As I, as a Catholic, do not consider him to be a spiritual father, I should not, then, refer to him as “Pastor”, whether directly or indirectly if out of his presence. By his own definition, we as Catholics should refer to “pastors” of the protestent faiths that we happen to know personally by their first names only, or by “Mr. X”, because to refer to them as “Pastor” would actually imply that we respect them as shepherds of a church.
Whether he agrees with the theology of the Church is a moot point. The reality is that he refers to his MD as “doctor” even if he disagrees with the doctor, or a Ph.D as “doctor” even if he disagrees with the philosophy. Why, then, does he refuse to use the proper title “Father” for a priest of the Catholic faith, for that is a formal title for those who are followers of Catholicism or not.
By disregarding the title, he is implying that the Lord of Heaven and Earth cannot read his heart and understand context.
Wow. What a faithful and believing “pastor.”
Maybe he should pick up a dictionary, or even better, a book written by “Miss. Manners”.
The protestant minister, then, by his logic, should not enjoy the title of Pastor from anyone but his own parishioners.
As I, as a Catholic, do not consider him to be a spiritual father, I should not, then, refer to him as “Pastor”, whether directly or indirectly if out of his presence. By his own definition, we as Catholics should refer to “pastors” of the protestent faiths that we happen to know personally by their first names only, or by “Mr. X”, because to refer to them as “Pastor” would actually imply that we respect them as shepherds of a church.
Whether he agrees with the theology of the Church is a moot point. The reality is that he refers to his MD as “doctor” even if he disagrees with the doctor, or a Ph.D as “doctor” even if he disagrees with the philosophy. Why, then, does he refuse to use the proper title “Father” for a priest of the Catholic faith, for that is a formal title for those who are followers of Catholicism or not.
By disregarding the title, he is implying that the Lord of Heaven and Earth cannot read his heart and understand context.
Wow. What a faithful and believing “pastor.”
Maybe he should pick up a dictionary, or even better, a book written by “Miss. Manners”.
B
blackfish152
Guest
This is a fine point. But he actually acknowledged that difference that generally catholics, will give him the respect and acknowledge his title of pastor, or whatever other title this guy used…dr…etc…
But he then went on to say that we dont respect the authority that the title confers in the first place, in the sense that we dont respect the validity of his ordination. Which is true. , but sure at neither does he respect the authority of priests, and he fails to have the curtesy to call them father.
But at the end of the day it is a matter of manners more than anything.
If anyone wuld like to see this guys website: there is some pretty erroneous stuff on their and misrepresentations about the faith. I would love some people to go, in the charitable manner and discuss any issues you feel are misrepresented.
Also he has a refutation of scott hahns testimony. it makes for interesting reading.
geocities.com/cfpchurch/protestantindex.html
just found this on a link from his main site:
“In line with the policy of the Free Presbyterian Church as a whole, Cork FPC will not be partaking in the “Prayers for Christian Unity Week” We take this stance for very strong, positive and Scriptural grounds.”
come on guys… set out into the deep and have a word in the good pastors ear!
geocities.com/cfpchurch/unityweek.html
PS dont tell him I sent you,it will be our secret!
God bless.
m
T
tradcatmel
Guest
My Bible explains the interpretation of this passage.
The meaning is, that our Father in heaven is incomparably more to be regarded, than any father upon earth : and no master to be followed, who would lead us away from Christ. But this does not hinder but that we are by the law of God to have a due respect both for our parents and spiritual fathers and for our masters and teachers.
I think people can read into certain passages and make of them what they want them to read, that is why we have the Catholic Church to give us the real interpretation. Tradition and the Fathers of the Church have debated we have not got the qualifications to put our own interpretation on scripture.
The meaning is, that our Father in heaven is incomparably more to be regarded, than any father upon earth : and no master to be followed, who would lead us away from Christ. But this does not hinder but that we are by the law of God to have a due respect both for our parents and spiritual fathers and for our masters and teachers.
I think people can read into certain passages and make of them what they want them to read, that is why we have the Catholic Church to give us the real interpretation. Tradition and the Fathers of the Church have debated we have not got the qualifications to put our own interpretation on scripture.
T
TOME
Guest
This, is my opinion, and I hope it is in line with authentic Catholic Teaching.
When Jesus is refering to “Father” He is reminding those who are hearing Him, and us, that we are made in the Image and Likeness of God. We have share in God’s nature therefore we have not only created by God but have been begotten by the Father as well (begotten in that, as stated above, we share in his Image and Likeness, namely, we have intellect and Free Will.) Through out the Gospels Jesus is exhorting to be like the Father (especially in our exercise of Mercy).
Jesus, refers to others as “Father” as in the story of Lazaruz and the rich man, and Jesus calls Abraham “Father” as he does in other places as well.
So, to say it is wrong to call any man Father, misses the point Jesus was trying to make.
When Jesus is refering to “Father” He is reminding those who are hearing Him, and us, that we are made in the Image and Likeness of God. We have share in God’s nature therefore we have not only created by God but have been begotten by the Father as well (begotten in that, as stated above, we share in his Image and Likeness, namely, we have intellect and Free Will.) Through out the Gospels Jesus is exhorting to be like the Father (especially in our exercise of Mercy).
Jesus, refers to others as “Father” as in the story of Lazaruz and the rich man, and Jesus calls Abraham “Father” as he does in other places as well.
So, to say it is wrong to call any man Father, misses the point Jesus was trying to make.
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