Calling priests "Father"

[AlanFromWichita]

Dear all,

Last night I met a woman who is a member of a non-denominational charismatic “Christian” church, and we began talking about our beliefs.

She asked one question that I have often wondered myself, but have yet to get up the nerve to ask any priest lest they get mad at me for being disrespectful.

I’m sure this is an old one, so maybe stock answers will do.

Why do we call priests “Father” given what Jesus said in Matt 23:9?

That is, “Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven.”

Alan

 

[metal1633]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear all,

Last night I met a woman who is a member of a non-denominational charismatic “Christian” church, and we began talking about our beliefs.

She asked one question that I have often wondered myself, but have yet to get up the nerve to ask any priest lest they get mad at me for being disrespectful.

I’m sure this is an old one, so maybe stock answers will do.

Why do we call priests “Father” given what Jesus said in Matt 23:9?

That is, “Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven.”

Alan

Jesus also said to call no one “Teacher” but I am sre your protestant friend DOES infact do that. Each of us has a biological male parent. Can we not call them “Father”?

So Jesus was not speaking literally. Was he speaking Spiritually? Was he saying call no one a Spiritual Father? Well again no He was not. The apostles themselves referred to their followers as their spiritual children, and to themselves as spiritual fathers. 1 Cor. 4:15, Phil 2:22, 1 Tim. 1:18, 2 Tim. 2:1, 2 Tim. 1:2, Tit. 1:4, Pil 1:10.

Both Paul and Jesus refer to Abraham as “Father”. Was Paul and John and Jesus Himself disobeying Jesus’ command? I dont think so.

So if its not literal and not spiritual, what IS it? Well according to PROTESTANT commentaries its a Hyperbole. An exaggeration. He was doing it to make a Point and thats how they talked back then. According to Protestant author John W. Haley,

The people of the East are fervid and impassioned in their modes of thought and expression. They think and speak in poetry. Bold metaphors and startling hyperboles abound in their writings and conversation. . . . He who does not remember the wide difference between the Oriental and Occidental mind, must necessarily fall into error

We Americans tend to forget this. We approach the New Testament as if it were originally written in English and its authors were contemporary Americans. We expect them to write as we would write, and thus we tend to read the Bible as if it were a contract drawn up by lawyers. Too often we mistake the Eastern poet for a Western essayist, and when we run across examples of the vivid exaggeration that was typical of ancient semitic writing, we don’t know what to make of it. And so we fret about whether we are allowed to call someone “father” (a practice to which the apostles had no objection), when in reality Jesus was simply expressing, in typically flambouyant Eastern style, the idea that no man is to take the place of God in our lives. The Protestant International Standard Bible Encyclopedia acknowledges that this is the true meaning of the text:

Christ’s condemnation is clearly of the praise-seeking or obsequious spirit, rather than of a particular custom.

This verse has nothing whatsoever to do with the proper use of the word “father,” it has to do with the proper attitude of Christians toward their brothers, and toward God. Therefore, it is perfectly appropriate for Catholics, and others, to give the title “father” to their ministers. In doing so they are not being disobedient to Jesus, rather they are following the apostolic example established by Paul and John.

 

[RobedWithLight]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear all,

Last night I met a woman who is a member of a non-denominational charismatic “Christian” church, and we began talking about our beliefs.

She asked one question that I have often wondered myself, but have yet to get up the nerve to ask any priest lest they get mad at me for being disrespectful.

I’m sure this is an old one, so maybe stock answers will do.

Why do we call priests “Father” given what Jesus said in Matt 23:9?

That is, “Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven.”

Alan

There is nothing wrong with calling priests “father”, as long as we acknowledge God as the Father above all.

Interestingly, Paul likewise exhorts:

"Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father" (1 Tim 5:1)

Did Paul violate Christ’s command? **No. **

Paul perfectly understood what Jesus taught. If what Christ really meant that we should not call any man as “father”, do you think Paul would say that?

Gerry

 

[jeffreedy789]

hey metal - good answer.

the only thing i’d add is the bit where the pharisees were calling abraham their father, in other words, placing their faith in abraham for, if not salvation, at least for holiness. Jesus made it clear then (God can raise up from these stones children of abraham) that they shouldn’t place their faith in abraham as their father. He reemphasizes here.

another way to realize that it’s not to be taken in the ‘don’t ever use that word’ way is to realize that if we take the verse completely literally, we would simply have to stop using the word ‘father’. we couldn’t even call the husband of our mother ‘father’. the word would simply fall out of use.

obviously, THAT’S not what Jesus meant. what DID He mean? this is where metal’s response comes in…

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Thanks Jeff, metal and Gerry.

That gives me a lot to go on. Some things are so obvious that I haven’t thought of them yet.

I especially like the part about using the Bible as if it were a contract written by lawyers in modern day English. That is a succinct way to express a lot.

Perhaps I argue a lot, but I’ve been lied to so many times I try not to take anything for granted, even if it seems obvious at first. Thank you for all the backing on this. I’d hate to have to go around gritting my teeth every time I addressed a priest.

Alan

 

[jeffreedy789]

believe it or not, this was THE biggest issue i had when i became catholic! and i knew it wasn’t a big one, that’s why i converted without resolving it.

the pope’s ‘crossing the threshhold’ addressed it, and set my fears aside very handily.

 

[fulloftruth]

Alan from Witch, what jumps out at me in your post is your perception of priests. Don’t ever be afraid to ask a priest any thing. You seem to have the same view of priests that you had when you were 7. It’s time to come of age and get a grown ups faith. You are doin the right thing by being here, but I urge you to study your Catholic Faith from authentic Catholic sources. The Cathechism, Scott Hahn, Karl Keating, Staples, Madrid, Olsen, also a book called A Philidelphia Catholic in a King James Court is good.

 

[jeffreedy789]

alan - i know what you mean about not asking. for what it’s worth, i think you have an adult faith.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

fulloftruth:

Alan from Witch, what jumps out at me in your post is your perception of priests. Don’t ever be afraid to ask a priest any thing. You seem to have the same view of priests that you had when you were 7. It’s time to come of age and get a grown ups faith. You are doin the right thing by being here, but I urge you to study your Catholic Faith from authentic Catholic sources. The Cathechism, Scott Hahn, Karl Keating, Staples, Madrid, Olsen, also a book called A Philidelphia Catholic in a King James Court is good.

Dear fulloftruth,

Thank you for your suggestions. A few years ago I made the mistake of being honest with priests about a topic that was very dear to me. The parish had actually paid for me to go to training on stewardship and asked me to help implement the wonderful diocesan policy. When I ran into roadblocks, the priest pretty much turned a deaf ear. When I tried to explain how important it was, he let me have it – big time.

Again there was a young, newly ordained priest who was temporarily living at our parish. He preached the best sermons I’d heard in a long time, and I would chat with him about them after Mass. I had a lot of respect for him because he answered all my questions with authority and intelligence. That is, until once I observed that the exact things he was preaching about in his sermon were things I had been trying to explain to some Catholic school officials. This didn’t sit well with him, as he was spiritual director of another school that, as it turns out, had the same problems. Finally I said, “do I understand you correctly? Are you saying that a school whose stated mission is to be ‘Dedicated to the education and formation of the total person in the image of Jesus Christ’ would not benefit from having its spiritual director review disciplinary policies for their compliance with the mission?” He said, angrily, “no.” Then he dismissed the conversation with, “THANK you for playing the organ today.” I never talked to him again except to ask if he wanted to sing the Gloria.

I think I did have the faith of a child, then, because I innocently thought it was OK to be honest. Now that I have been soundly discarded for those areas in which I could best help to build the Church according to her own documented standards and within my training that they paid for me to attend I am now very careful what I say.

Alan

 

[BayCityRickL]

Just from a slightly different angle…

Jesus used the word “father” in all its meanings. If you have access to a Strong’s concordance, you will see this.

Also, if you look up the word “spirit” in Strong’s, it too was apparently used in the original Greek with several meanings, as we would have several ideas in English about the same word.

So, I agree with Metal that we need to search for how Jesus used the word – and to have an open mind about the matter, too.

Notice that those who are quick to fling this verse at Catholics ( although Episcopalians have “fathers” too) are probably not interpreting the Bible well, in the first place. And, in the second, they are quick to criticize. Of course, WE would never do that, would we?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

BayCityRickL:

And, in the second, they are quick to criticize. Of course, WE would never do that, would we?

Dear BayCityRickL,

No, not US!



Alan

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Here’s an answer I gave to someone once who asked me that same question via e-mail. Hope you find it helpful:

Jesus was condemning the misuse of authority, not the use of certain terms. He did not intend for these words to be taken literally. He was using a literary device called “hyperbole”; he was making a point with exaggeration. Another example of this would be Jesus’ command, “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away” (Matt 18:9). He clearly didn’t mean for those who look at something they oughtn’t to render themselves blind.

If one is to take the words “call no one on earth your father” (which would include the calling of oneself “father”)literally, we would find Paul directly violating this command when he says “I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel,” (1 Cor. 4:15) and in Philemon 10 when he says “I urge you on behalf of my child Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment.” Paul wasn’t married and had no children so he wasn’t speaking biologically,(which, according to your argument, would still be a violation of using the word “father”) he was speaking spiritually. He was a spiritual father. There are many other verses in which Paul refers to his spiritual children (1 Cor. 4-17; 1 Tim.1:2; 2 Tim.1:2; 1 Tim.1:18; 2 Tim. 2:1; Phil.2:22; Titus 1:4),thereby claiming for himself the position of spiritual father. Since the Bible frequently speaks of this spiritual fatherhood, we Catholics acknowledge it and follow the custom of the apostles by calling priests “father”.

If one is to take the words “call no one on earth your father” literally, then one must also take literally the previous verse, “do not be called Rabbi. You have but one teacher”(Matt. 23:8). Are we then to assume that anyone who uses the title “Doctor” for M.D’s and Ph.D.‘s is also violating Jesus’ command? “Doctor” is, after all, the Latin word for “teacher”. In the same vein, are we also to assume that anyone who uses the titles “Mister” or “Mistress” (Mrs.), which are forms of the word “master” to be in violation of Matt. 23:10 which says “Do not be called “Master”, you have but one master, the Messiah”? Clearly not. Nor are we in violation by calling priests “Father”. We are using the term in it’s scriptural context; as spiritual father.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Greg_McPherran]

metal1633:

Jesus also said to call no one “Teacher” but I am sre your protestant friend DOES infact do that. Each of us has a biological male parent. Can we not call them “Father”?

So Jesus was not speaking literally. Was he speaking Spiritually? Was he saying call no one a Spiritual Father? Well again no He was not. The apostles themselves referred to their followers as their spiritual children, and to themselves as spiritual fathers. 1 Cor. 4:15, Phil 2:22, 1 Tim. 1:18, 2 Tim. 2:1, 2 Tim. 1:2, Tit. 1:4, Pil 1:10.

Both Paul and Jesus refer to Abraham as “Father”. Was Paul and John and Jesus Himself disobeying Jesus’ command? I dont think so.

So if its not literal and not spiritual, what IS it? Well according to PROTESTANT commentaries its a Hyperbole. An exaggeration. He was doing it to make a Point and thats how they talked back then. According to Protestant author John W. Haley,

The people of the East are fervid and impassioned in their modes of thought and expression. They think and speak in poetry. Bold metaphors and startling hyperboles abound in their writings and conversation. . . . He who does not remember the wide difference between the Oriental and Occidental mind, must necessarily fall into error

We Americans tend to forget this. We approach the New Testament as if it were originally written in English and its authors were contemporary Americans. We expect them to write as we would write, and thus we tend to read the Bible as if it were a contract drawn up by lawyers. Too often we mistake the Eastern poet for a Western essayist, and when we run across examples of the vivid exaggeration that was typical of ancient semitic writing, we don’t know what to make of it. And so we fret about whether we are allowed to call someone “father” (a practice to which the apostles had no objection), when in reality Jesus was simply expressing, in typically flambouyant Eastern style, the idea that no man is to take the place of God in our lives. The Protestant International Standard Bible Encyclopedia acknowledges that this is the true meaning of the text:

Christ’s condemnation is clearly of the praise-seeking or obsequious spirit, rather than of a particular custom.

This verse has nothing whatsoever to do with the proper use of the word “father,” it has to do with the proper attitude of Christians toward their brothers, and toward God. Therefore, it is perfectly appropriate for Catholics, and others, to give the title “father” to their ministers. In doing so they are not being disobedient to Jesus, rather they are following the apostolic example established by Paul and John.

Excellent answer if I may say so. Especially about how apostles referred to themselves as fathers. Well said.

 

[tuopaolo]

I don’t think its absolutely required for Catholics to call priests “Father.” I think it’s just a custom and it varies among different countries. If one had a problem of conscience with calling a priest Father I think the Church would respect that. It certainly shouldn’t be a reason to leave the Church or to refrain from converting to the Church. Just my opinion

 

[metal1633]

AlanFromWichita:

Dear fulloftruth,

Thank you for your suggestions. A few years ago I made the mistake of being honest with priests about a topic that was very dear to me. The parish had actually paid for me to go to training on stewardship and asked me to help implement the wonderful diocesan policy. When I ran into roadblocks, the priest pretty much turned a deaf ear. When I tried to explain how important it was, he let me have it – big time.

Again there was a young, newly ordained priest who was temporarily living at our parish. He preached the best sermons I’d heard in a long time, and I would chat with him about them after Mass. I had a lot of respect for him because he answered all my questions with authority and intelligence. That is, until once I observed that the exact things he was preaching about in his sermon were things I had been trying to explain to some Catholic school officials. This didn’t sit well with him, as he was spiritual director of another school that, as it turns out, had the same problems. Finally I said, “do I understand you correctly? Are you saying that a school whose stated mission is to be ‘Dedicated to the education and formation of the total person in the image of Jesus Christ’ would not benefit from having its spiritual director review disciplinary policies for their compliance with the mission?” He said, angrily, “no.” Then he dismissed the conversation with, “THANK you for playing the organ today.” I never talked to him again except to ask if he wanted to sing the Gloria.

I think I did have the faith of a child, then, because I innocently thought it was OK to be honest. Now that I have been soundly discarded for those areas in which I could best help to build the Church according to her own documented standards and within my training that they paid for me to attend I am now very careful what I say.

Alan

One should not have to walk on eggshells when talking to thier Priest. Its kinda sad when one runs into these things. We step on toes and push buttons that sometimes bring out less than Christlike qualities in even the best of people. Human failings seem to have no end. Take it in stride and if you think you may have crossed a line, apologize and hope the priest will recognize his own short comings in this case. It can be an oppurtunity to grow, or continue to remain silent.