Calvinist and eternal security

[traillius]

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Well where, if ever, has this happened? You seem to be implying an almost birds eye view into the misterious eternal decrees of God, which a Calvinist would rule out as impossible to know, I can know that I am saved but I can never truely know if you are saved.

I don’t beleive it is a simple question so I will refrain from giving a simple yes or no. If the person is saved than yes if not than no. Many people die who live very godly lives and are not saved. We can never really know what is between a brother or sister and God, I find it troubling to even speculate in such a way. Again unless God has given you some inside knowledge to who made it and who didn’t and than you can compare their lives to a biblical one and make a decision, than fine ( but we are all not so luckly).

We also affirm that sanctification is progressive, so on that note one might assume that the answer would be no, they were at that point never one of the elect. Your question was framed withen Catholic presupositions, that is fine but in order to critique Calvinism from a reductio ad absurdeum type argument, assume Calvinism to be true and work the logical implications of it and show that it is absurd logically, than you must accept Calvinistic presupositions in your argument, not Catholic ones.

For a Catholic it is easy a mortal sin is a mortal is a mortal sin. So this person than lost their salvation, but for a Calvinist we view things as to whether or not they were ever saved to begin with. Also the Covenant of Grace plays in here because all elect will be part of the Covenant of Grace in some fashion. So In this sense did this person commit apostacy and leave the visible church? If so than they were never really onre of us. You see the question is much more complicated than you think it is.

its more complicated because you are making it more complicated. Either he goes to heaven or he doesn’t. I would allow purgatory, but most protestants have abandoned that idea. Or perhaps your OSAS, or ‘elect’ concepts are not soldily grounded in what it really means to be a christian. Perhaps, paul, and not jesus, is the root of your faith. I am not saying you’re not a christian, just that you have let ‘truth’ impair grace. I am glad I don’t live by SS. I would hate to have to balance all those conflicts.

 

[PJM]

[QOTE]For a Catholic it is easy a mortal sin is a mortal is a mortal sin. So this person than lost their salvation, but for a Calvinist we view things as to whether or not they were ever saved to begin with. Also the Covenant of Grace plays in here because all elect will be part of the Covenant of Grace in some fashion. So In this sense did this person commit apostacy and leave the visible church? If so than they were never really onre of us. You see the question is much more complicated than you think it is.

THE REPLY

[QOTE]its more complicated because you are making it more complicated. Either he goes to heaven or he doesn’t. I would allow purgatory, but most protestants have abandoned that idea. Or perhaps your OSAS, or ‘elect’ concepts are not soldily grounded in what it really means to be a christian. Perhaps, paul, and not jesus, is the root of your faith. I am not saying you’re not a christian, just that you have let ‘truth’ impair grace. I am glad I don’t live by SS. I would hate to have to balance all those conflicts

That there is FAR more here than a “difference of opinion” which is clarified by the Bible; which “all Christians” claim as there “own.”

If one choses to claim the Bible; ought not it be the Entire Bible?

Can one chose for example to ignore the Teaching of Christ Himself on sin and forgiveness? Does not the Bible claim soveriginity over all who chose to call themselves “followers of Christ?” So “Mortal Sins” apply, as do the Comandmnts to he entire World not just Christanity. There are “Intrinsic Evils” such as Cold Bloodid muder; Abortion, unfaithfullnes in marriage that everyone OUGHT to know are Mortal sins, even without knowing the position of the CC. What is true; IS ALWAYS TRUE.

Matt.19: 17 “And he [Jesus] said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. **If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” **

1John.1 Verses 8 to 10: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.** If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, **and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23 " When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”

What is “good for the goose; is good for the gander.”

God Bless,
Pat