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Catholic_775
Guest
** A Catholic totally destroys the protestant arguments in this recent Youtube debate. Here is the link…
youtube.com/watch?v=Qn1vC1Ez-OI **
youtube.com/watch?v=Qn1vC1Ez-OI **
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holyreyes
Guest
Would you rather hear it from an authoritative religious leader like Pope Francis who challenges the world’s business leaders and the elite few richest people who control more than half of the world’s wealth to put their wealth to good use in serving humanity, and to oversee the “better distribution of wealth?” The material treasures that we acquired should be realized that they are on loan to us from God and that we are supposed to be good stewards of God’s providence. At the end all of us will have to give an account on how we managed them.All to often the term socialism is confused with charity and therein lies the controversy.
If the government takes from you without your permission that is socialism and relative to the same ideology as communism and fascism. If another takes from you to benefit themselves or even to share with another without your permission that is not a charitable act…it is thievery.
Jesus was always willing to give as evidenced by His gift of loaves of bread and fish and the miracle that changed water into wine. He did so not because it was required of Him but because He felt the need to give.
I voluntarily give to many charities and tithe to my church and that I give from my heart. For someone to take from me in the name of the ‘common good’ is still theft.
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Gold_Star
Guest
This question is difficult because the church in the beginning “had all things in common” Acts. 2:44,45. No one has ever proven that this was inefficient, a mistake taking human nature into account, contrary to divine will, or not applicable to the long-term future. There are still a number or religious orders which follow the same ancient practice.
Noncontroversial socialistic practices do exist in capitalistic societies where they are known to be the most efficient. Examples are public utilities - water, sewage, electricity, gas, etc. The postal system, now in decline, is another.
The question of what type of economic system is best in any particular society depends on the commitment to maintaining a minimum standard of living that all members of the society can legitimately experience. So we have two criteria to consider - efficiency and commitment to an assured minimum living standard. This minimum would vary radically across the globe, so no universal solution exists at present.
No economic model for any society, whether feudalism, capitalism, socialism, or communism, has ever had the express approval of the Church because none make the overriding mission of the Church the center point of the economic system. Recognizing that the Church exists and deserves priority in spiritual matters is as far as anything has gone.
Noncontroversial socialistic practices do exist in capitalistic societies where they are known to be the most efficient. Examples are public utilities - water, sewage, electricity, gas, etc. The postal system, now in decline, is another.
The question of what type of economic system is best in any particular society depends on the commitment to maintaining a minimum standard of living that all members of the society can legitimately experience. So we have two criteria to consider - efficiency and commitment to an assured minimum living standard. This minimum would vary radically across the globe, so no universal solution exists at present.
No economic model for any society, whether feudalism, capitalism, socialism, or communism, has ever had the express approval of the Church because none make the overriding mission of the Church the center point of the economic system. Recognizing that the Church exists and deserves priority in spiritual matters is as far as anything has gone.
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Abu
Guest
The error in that supposition is simply denying that the free economy is unparalleled as a Catholic development, and confusing the sins of the perpetrators of greed (the misuse) with the free market – thus placing one’s self in opposition to both Bl John Paul II in Centesimus Annus, and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI in Caritas et Veritate.
Bl John Paul II in Centesimus Annus, #42:
‘If by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”.
‘CA 43. The Church has no models to present;’
Greed, deceit and cheating have no place in any human activity. Individual morality determines how owners, managers and employees treat each other and the customers, which requires the morality taught by Christ’s Church. That’s why we have laws to seek and punish those who steal, cheat, swindle, and worse crimes. That’s why we have the Catholic Church to guide us – She who invented charity in the West. It’s time to face reality.
Pope Benedict XVI felt it necessary to teach that “Society does not have to protect itself from the market, as if the development of the latter were ipso facto to entail the death of authentically human relations…Therefore it is not the instrument that must be called to account, but individuals, their moral conscience and their personal and social responsibility.” (Caritas et Veritate, Benedict XVI, 2009, #36).
With such antipathy to the Church and feeling of superiority to the popes, no wonder there is confusion and evil.
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Brendan_64
Guest
But the point is that there is no ‘Free market’. The market is deliberately controlled by layers pf legislation designed to keep the market ‘rigged’. The argument is not about ‘Free market’ versus ‘Managed market’ it is about who the market should be managed to favour. In the end that is what it is about. Forget about the concept of a free market, it doesn’t exist.
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ynotzap
Guest
Holy Scripture reveals a Christian communism or socialism. The early Christian community agreed to voluntarily give their possessions to be shared by all members of the community. It is stated it went well for everyone. They came together and held all things in common.(Act3:42-47) There was one major difference then, the Holy Spirit worked strongly through the Apostles, evangelization was backed up by the Holy Spirit. Ananias and Sapphira cheated in their contributions and dropped dead at the feet of the Apostles. great fear prevailed through out the community. Today that Christianity is not the case in the world community. Any attempt to do the same today would meet with disaster as shown by Atheistic communism, which is still being practice in different parts of the world. This early Christian communism is practiced in a smaller way among Christian Communities such as our religious communities. Without the Spirit of God any attempts for fair, loving distribution of wealth and possessions will meet the same fate. We are all effected by sin, and the consequence of sin, this means that we are all bound by our own limitations, and vices. We witness this every day in societies all over the world. The U.S.A is a good example where wealth is polarized, and many are suffering homlessness, jobless, and poverty.in a nation that is rich. Do we need the Spirit of Christ? More than ever, in so many ways. It seems that we must be forced to our knees before we start praying for help. I observe whats happening every day, do you notice the weather, all kinds of records are being broken. I believe that God is in full control of every event in the world which He sustains. Many of us are trying to live without Him, God can not be denied whether we accept Him, or not. We have many false gods like money, fame, sensual pleasure and many material things. All this could change for the better if we would acknowledge and turn to our God, Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He will never let anything come between us and His love for us He will destroy these false gods.
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Abu
Guest
The error in which Brendan 64 is immersed as a mantra, is without any historical facts, and cannot be corrected until the reality is accepted. The excerpts below point to the reality.
Tuesday, January 27, 2009
Faith and Policy
Has free-market capitalism died?
Michael Miller
‘…“capitalism” is a Marxist term. It gives the impression that the market is a nebulous force. This impersonal understanding can lead us to blame markets when things go wrong instead of exploring reasons that are harder to diagnose.
‘Pope John Paul II rejected the term, preferring “market economy,” “business economy” or “free economy.” He did so to illustrate that markets are networks of human relationships. This sheds light on the underlying moral nature of markets.
‘Markets are the combined activities of millions of individuals. They are not composed merely of some guys on Wall Street; they are made up by us. Like anything else run by humans, markets can fail. If we become overly speculative and convinced that prices can go nowhere but up – as happened in the Tulip Bubble in 1637, the dot.com bubble in 2000 and the recent housing bubble – sooner or later reality will set in.
‘Despite their failures, however, free markets have lifted more people out of poverty and helped create prosperity and peace better than any system.’
acton.org/pub/commentary/2009/01/21/end-capitalism
Bono now says capitalism is the answer.
George Ayittey, an African entrepreneur, met Bono in 2007 and gave the rock star a copy of his book, Africa Unchained: The Blueprint For Development. Some of it must have taken hold, as Bono has come to acknowledge that foreign aid is merely a “stopgap” for poverty, not a realistic solution.
blog.acton.org/archives/58688-bono-affirms-that-capitalism-alleviates-poverty-more-than-aid.html
Tuesday, January 27, 2009
Faith and Policy
Has free-market capitalism died?
Michael Miller
‘…“capitalism” is a Marxist term. It gives the impression that the market is a nebulous force. This impersonal understanding can lead us to blame markets when things go wrong instead of exploring reasons that are harder to diagnose.
‘Pope John Paul II rejected the term, preferring “market economy,” “business economy” or “free economy.” He did so to illustrate that markets are networks of human relationships. This sheds light on the underlying moral nature of markets.
‘Markets are the combined activities of millions of individuals. They are not composed merely of some guys on Wall Street; they are made up by us. Like anything else run by humans, markets can fail. If we become overly speculative and convinced that prices can go nowhere but up – as happened in the Tulip Bubble in 1637, the dot.com bubble in 2000 and the recent housing bubble – sooner or later reality will set in.
‘Despite their failures, however, free markets have lifted more people out of poverty and helped create prosperity and peace better than any system.’
acton.org/pub/commentary/2009/01/21/end-capitalism
Bono now says capitalism is the answer.
George Ayittey, an African entrepreneur, met Bono in 2007 and gave the rock star a copy of his book, Africa Unchained: The Blueprint For Development. Some of it must have taken hold, as Bono has come to acknowledge that foreign aid is merely a “stopgap” for poverty, not a realistic solution.
blog.acton.org/archives/58688-bono-affirms-that-capitalism-alleviates-poverty-more-than-aid.html
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Abu
Guest
False.
In Acts 2:44-47, so-called “Apostolics” were condemned by St Thomas and the Late Scholastics, who quote St Augustine. Why?
In his Summa, II-II, Q. 66, art. 2, resp., St Thomas quotes St Augustine: “Augustine says: ‘The people styled apostolic are those who arrogantly claimed this title for themselves because they refused to admit married folk or property owners to their fellowship, arguing from the model of the many monks and clerics in the Catholic Church (De Haeresibus 40).’ But such people are heretics because they cut themselves off from the Church by alleging that those who, unlike themselves, marry and own property have no hope of salvation.” Christians For freedom, Dr Alejandroo Chafuen, Ignatius, 1986, p 46].
We see in Acts 4:34-35, A Catholic Commentary On Holy Scripture, Thomas Nelson and Sons, 1953:
(This) shows “that property was sold, from time to time, by the owners of it, according as the Church’s need dictated. The sharing of goods was always voluntary. The story of Ananias and Saphira, cf. 5:4, makes it clear that they were not bound to sell, and that after they had, the price was still theirs. When Barnabas gave all his property, such exceptional generosity was chronicled. There are examples of houses held privately in Jerusalem, !2:12; 21:16. St James, in his Epistle, reveals the existence of rich and poor there. The community of goods does not seem to have been very successful, 6:1, and other churches had continually to send alms, voluntarily, ‘each man according to his ability’, to Jerusalem, 11:29.”
Voluntary sharing and communal living in a religious community have nothing to do with Communism or other such forced appropriations and destruction of freedom. So religious communities may have prayer in common, goods in common and spiritual goals, but they are not the evil of communism which has no spiritual objectives and aims to direct and control everyone and everything to evil.
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ynotzap
Guest
I wasn’t speaking of the /christian communism that is derived from the virtue of Christian charity (the Holy Spirit) but of atheistic communism which enslaved millions to share, killed initiative, and was controlled by 4% of the people and denied God’s existence. This was forced and not the result of free choice, as was the first Christian communism.
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ynotzap
Guest
I wasn’t speaking of the /christian communism that is derived from the virtue of Christian charity (the Holy Spirit) but of atheistic communism which enslaved millions to share, killed initiative, and was controlled by 4% of the people and denied God’s existence. This was forced and not the result of free choice, as was the first Christian communism.
The goods were shared as needed, they still could retain their property. Ananias was punished for his deception. St. Peter said that Ananias had complete control of his property before it was sold and after it was sold. No force here.
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markomalley
Guest
Social Democracy is one good expression of this teaching.
Pope Leo XIII would not agree with you:
5. What Social Democracy is and what Christian Democracy ought to be, assuredly no one can doubt. The first, with due consideration to the greater or less intemperance of its utterance, is carried to such an excess by many as to maintain that there is really nothing existing above the natural order of things, and that the acquirement and enjoyment of corporal and external goods constitute man’s happiness. It aims at putting all government in the hands of the masses, reducing all ranks to the same level, abolishing all distinction of class, and finally introducing community of goods. Hence, the right to own private property is to be abrogated, and whatever property a man possesses, or whatever means of livelihood he has, is to be common to all.
- As against this, Christian Democracy, by the fact that it is Christian, is built, and necessarily so, on the basic principles of divine faith, and it must provide better conditions for the masses, with the ulterior object of promoting the perfection of souls made for things eternal. Hence, for Christian Democracy, justice is sacred; it must maintain that the right of acquiring and possessing property cannot be impugned, and it must safeguard the various distinctions and degrees which are indispensable in every well ordered commonwealth. Finally, it must endeavor to preserve in every human society the form and the character which God ever impresses on it. It is clear, therefore, that there in nothing in common between Social and Christian Democracy. They differ from each other as much as the sect of socialism differs from the profession of Christianity.
Encyclical Graves De Communi Re (1901)
I think I’ll go with Leo XIII’s line of thinking.
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WTSherman
Guest
Yugoslavia can be forgiven for its experiment with communism considering its situation.
Keep in mind the philosophy of Marxism is destructive to the masses.
Socialists act as though they have a monopoly on taking care of the poor. Much more could be done for the poor in a prosperous nation. In fact I would argue socialism in its present form encourages idleness and dependency and is destructive to society.
It lies in the fact that there will be no Utopia. The best thing we have to go by is history where these experiments have played out. The communist countries failed, the capitalist and free people did good.
Keep in mind the philosophy of Marxism is destructive to the masses.
Socialists act as though they have a monopoly on taking care of the poor. Much more could be done for the poor in a prosperous nation. In fact I would argue socialism in its present form encourages idleness and dependency and is destructive to society.
It lies in the fact that there will be no Utopia. The best thing we have to go by is history where these experiments have played out. The communist countries failed, the capitalist and free people did good.
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Abu
Guest
How typical to totally evade the wisdom of George Ayittey, the African entrepreneur who met Bono in 2007 and gave him a copy of his book, Africa Unchained: The Blueprint For Development.
The revered James V. Schall, S.J., in Do Christians Love Poverty?, August 16, 2013, took the trouble to enlighten by pointing out that “much of world poverty has in fact been reduced or alleviated, as a recent essay in *The Economist *has shown. Christians often seem not to know that this change has happened or why it happened.”
Between 1990 and 2010, their number fell by half as a share of the total population in developing countries, from 43% to 21%—a reduction of almost 1 billion people.
tinyurl.com/ldjt6go
Greed is present in mankind throughout society, but no economic laws encourage “hoarding of wealth” and greed – some PEOPLE hoard wealth, some people are greedy. No wealth can be created until it is produced – that’s why the Catholic Late Scholastic system works so well to enable everyone to produce some wealth and to do with it as they choose through free-will. The economic laws are based on the principles of human action – of cause and effect involving God-given reason.
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Athanasiy
Guest
Timi , but as far as I heard , Slovenia was showing the best result in economic growth comparably with all ex-communist countries.
Even some of the older EU members-countries did not show the growth as it was in Slovenia.
EU membership is the only way to get better, right ?
Even some of the older EU members-countries did not show the growth as it was in Slovenia.
EU membership is the only way to get better, right ?
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