Can a Nun/Consecrated Virgin have a hysterectomy?

[1ke]

Words have meaning, goout. Particularly in the Church and in theology.

It is the teaching of the Church that Mary maintained her physical integrity even in giving birth. The term is in partu. This has been written about by saints, popes, and in ecumenical councils.

You want to ascribe a different meaning than the one the Church has consistently applied for 2000 years. I can’t really help you with your unwillingness to read the documents with the mind of the Church and apply to the words they use the Church’s meaning of the words: physical integrity, virginal integrity, and bodily integrity. The word “integrity” is referring to her physical virginity.

The doctrine is found in the writings of the Council of Chalcedon, the Lateran Synod of 649, Pope Paul IV (1555) and Pope Pius XII (Mystici Corpous). Which are in the footnotes of LG.

I’m not entirely sure I understand what your objection to the doctrine is. I suggest you talk to your pastor about it if you don’t understand it.

It has nothing to do with a “physical virginity test” for nuns or anyone else.

Edited to add:

Yes, there are two different ways we talk about virginity. A general one and a technical one. It is the latter that is being discussed when it comes to Mary. They physical integrity of the body, the hymen. In the technical sense, only women can be virgins. In the general sense, we talk about people who have never had sex, men and women.

 

[goout]

Words have meaning, goout. Particularly in the Church and in theology.

It is the teaching of the Church that Mary maintained her physical integrity even in giving birth. The term is in partu. This has been written about by saints, popes, and in ecumenical councils.

You want to ascribe a different meaning than the one the Church has consistently applied for 2000 years. I can’t really help you with your unwillingness to read the documents with the mind of the Church and apply to the words they use the Church’s meaning of the words: physical integrity, virginal integrity, and bodily integrity. The word “integrity” is referring to her physical virginity.

The doctrine is found in the writings of the Council of Chalcedon, the Lateran Synod of 649, Pope Paul IV (1555) and Pope Pius XII (Mystici Corpous). Which are in the footnotes of LG.

It has nothing to do with a “physical virginity test” for nuns or anyone else.

That is tradition, not Tradition.
Mary is perpetual virgin, not “she who gave birth without blood or pain or use of her birth canal’”. If someone wishes to believe that, no one prohibits it, but that’s not dogma, and the CCC does not say that.

You are conflating virginal integrity with a physical virginity test.
Christ’s birth “sanctifies” Mary’s virginal integrity.
What do you think “sanctify” and “integrity” mean? You are focused on a medical understanding of “virginity” to the exclusion of the rest.

 

[Londoner]

Yes, I can understand that there are sometimes legitimate grounds for confusion where a question requires quite a high level of understanding of both scientific and theological issues. For example, where sterilisation or contraception are indicated for therapeutic reasons and not as means of preventing conception. But that is not the kind of question I’m talking about. I am talking about questions like, ‘Should women be preaching/ giving apologetic speeches outside of mass?’ Not only is there quite obviously nothing in the Church’s teaching to suggest that women may not fulfil this role, but this has in fact historically been one of the main roles that women have undertaken in the Church. The answers on that thread ranged from a simple ‘Yes’ to a baffled ‘Why are you even asking this question?’

 

[1ke]

That is tradition, not Tradition.

No, it isn’t tradition.

It’s a teaching of the ordinary magesterium, i.e. it’s a doctrine, part of Tradition (divine revelation).

It’s been taught by popes, saints, ecumenical councils, and most recently in Lumen Gentium and the Catechism.

Mary is perpetual virgin, not “she who gave birth without blood or pain or use of her birth canal’”.

We do not know how she maintained physical integrity. The Church teaches she did, not how she did. What you wrote above is not what I said. It is one explanation.

You are conflating virginal integrity with a physical virginity test.

No, I’m not.

Christ’s birth “sanctifies” Mary’s virginal integrity.
What do you think “sanctify” and “integrity” mean? You are focused on a medical understanding of “virginity” to the exclusion of the rest.

I’m focused on what the Church teaches.

 

[goout]

goout:

That is tradition, not Tradition.

No, it isn’t tradition.

It’s a teaching of the ordinary magesterium, i.e. it’s a doctrine, part of Tradition (divine revelation).

It’s been taught by popes, saints, ecumenical councils, and most recently in Lumen Gentium and the Catechism.

Mary is perpetual virgin, not “she who gave birth without blood or pain or use of her birth canal’”.

We do not know how she maintained physical integrity. The Church teaches she did, not how she did. What you wrote above is not what I said. It is one explanation.

You are conflating virginal integrity with a physical virginity test.

No, I’m not.

Christ’s birth “sanctifies” Mary’s virginal integrity.
What do you think “sanctify” and “integrity” mean? You are focused on a medical understanding of “virginity” to the exclusion of the rest.

I’m focused on what the Church teaches.

Not going to argue about it.
You are conflating, as said above.
You have still not posted a source. The CCC and LG you posted don’t support your claim.
And that’s because it’s pious tradition. Which is fine, but it’s not a dogmatic part of the perpetual virginity.
end of story.

And I’m curious why you changed your mind on this:

So, you’re denying that the hymen was intact? If not, what’s the fuss?

Mary, and Jesus’ Birth Apologetics

We can neither confirm nor deny such a thing. It is equally incorrect to assert either as being a doctrine of the church. There is no doctrine of the church regarding Mary’s hymen. There is theological discussion. The Church teaches perpetual virginity. Virginity is defined by not having had intercourse. It is not defined by having or not having a hymen.

Mary, and Jesus’ Birth Apologetics

I need not believe that Mary’s hymen was intact to believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. I believe in what the Church actually teaches, and it teaches nothing definitive regarding her hymen.

 

[Lea101]

Out of curiosity…so the Church doesn’t consider me a virgin anymore because I used a tampon?

 

[Lea101]

I see what you mean.

Perhaps we see trolls, or maybe people from other Christian churches that believed in it. There are Christians who genuinely believe women cannot teach anyone except for younger women. Because of scripture. Yikes.

 

[Sarcelle]

There was this unfortunate case of a woman who was removed from her position as a professor of Hebrew from a Baptist University because the powers that be considered her teaching men the Hebrew language as unBiblical because Paul.

I apologize for the ridiculous sentence structure but I think it mirrors the ridiculous position of the powers that be that ran this University.

 

[1ke]

Because I’ve learned since then.

We are always learning.

 

[Londoner]

the Church doesn’t consider me a virgin anymore because I used a tampon?

‘Internal tamponage, hockey parturition and mixed athletics’

Thankfully I think the Church’s understanding has developed somewhat since the days of Archbishop McQuaid!

 

[1ke]

Out of curiosity…so the Church doesn’t consider me a virgin anymore because I used a tampon?

No Leah, that is not what we are talking about at all. And the Church has no teaching on that topic.

We are talking about the perpetual virginity of Mary, and that is something very specific.

And yes there are two meanings to virginity. A very common one and a very technical one.

And so what? Why is this a problem?

 

[1ke]

FYI, not all women are born with a hymen.

 

[Lea101]

Because you are referring to the technical one, that is the presence of the hymen tissue. This usually breaks during exercise, or penetration. So I don’t really see how it has nothing to do with what I said at all.

And so what? Why is this a problem?

Because the concept of physical virginity is outdated, and was harmful (refer to the bloody sheet remark). Also there was some weird fascination with physical purity and womanhood, even though now we know ‘physical virginity’ is not related to virginity at all. Like I said, hymen breaks and there are women who have no hymen.

Edit: if you’re not referring to the “seal”, what part of the anatomy are you referring to?

 

[Londoner]

Perhaps we see trolls, or maybe people from other Christian churches that believed in it.

I fear that he wasn’t a troll and really thought that this might be the case. He also didn’t know that the Order of Preachers and the Dominicans are the same thing, so perhaps was genuinely ignorant and not causing trouble.

a woman who was removed from her position as a professor of Hebrew from a Baptist University because the powers that be considered her teaching men the Hebrew language as unBiblical because Paul.

There was a boy at my secondary school whose father objected to his son being taught religious studies by a woman. For the avoidance of doubt, it was a secular school and by “religious studies” I mean the academic subject mandated in England’s national curriculum and examined by an independent examinations board, nothing to do with being instructed in the Christian faith. The family were Plymouth Brethren…

 

[rose321]

I didn’t write that—
You somehow quoted me quoting someone else

I am so sorry OScarlett_nidiyilii! Thanks for correcting me and bringing that to my attention…peace

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I stand by my earlier posts. With that, I will leave the thread. I recall this topic has come up before in the past and it usually just ends up in the same divided opinion theology has shown on it. I don’t claim to be a great theologian, but I don’t think physical integrity is the point, and I’m fine with thinking that way. Good day all.

P.S. I’m just going to leave this here

What do we mean when we say Mary was "ever virgin"? - Catholic Straight Answers

We as Catholics firmly believe that Mary is “ever virgin.” The Catechism asserts, “The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary’s real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the … Continued

catholicstraightanswers.com

 

[rose321]

I had lots of similar questions about it as well, since the differential treatment of women is counter-cultural and accepted. Same goes for the LGBT community

Respectfully seems Jesus came maybe to correct wrong interpretations when it came about Woman role? equal rights under the law?