Can a person be saved without hearing the gospel?

[SpringRose]

I am scheduled to be received in full communion with the Catholic Church next month and questions and concerns from Protestant friends and family are heating up. I want to address these concerns because these people are dear to me, because I want to be faithful to speak the truth, and because I want to be sure I’m doing the right thing. I could use some help with this one:

“Are the decisions of the II Vatican Council still in effect? Lumen Gentium 16 includes a sentence which reads, “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.” Paul certainly didn’t believe this because he went everywhere with the Gospel of Jesus Christ so people could hear and believe and be saved, and when he encountered some who were going all over preaching the baptism of John and baptizing people, he instructed them in the Gospel, and their hearts were changed. Peter, in addressing the crowd after a crippled man had been healed in the temple area, said of Jesus particularly, “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12 ESV)”

This question is coming from a Calvinist perspective which assumes that God has chosen everyone who is going to be saved and that if he chose a person from an unreached tribe he would send a missionary to preach the gospel to them because otherwise they could not be saved. Calvinists also believe that it is impossible for a person to seek God without being changed by the Holy Spirit. In fairness, they do not take this as an excuse not to evangelize, rather they profess an urgency about evangelism, since none of us know whom God has chosen, we must obey his command to share to gospel with everyone we can because we might be his means of bringing someone to the Lord.

I have backed off from the Calvinist view over the last year because I see problems with the doctrine of reprobation (God chooses that some people will go to hell–and that’s OK because we all deserve it anyway) being consistent with a loving God. I think I am now more comfortable with the Catholic/free will perspective, but of course that is not going to satisfy this person–I need a reply based on Scripture.

Also, I personally have a question about this statement from Vatican II. If people can be saved without knowing the gospel, is there a good reason to evangelize the unreached? It seems Saint Francis Xavier thought there was, and felt quite an urgency about it. I saw a quote from him once that seemed to indicate that he believed souls were being saved from hell when they received the gospel. Is this idea in conflict with Vatican II?

Thanks for any insight you can provide!

 

[The_Blunt_Brig]

Yes they can by having a baptism of desire.

Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 4: “In these words there is suggested a description of the justification of the impious, how there is a transition from that state in which a person is born as a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of adoption as sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ our savior; indeed, this transition, once the gospel has been promulgated, cannot take place without the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, as it is written: UNLESS A MAN IS BORN AGAIN OF WATER and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5).”

and farther down in Lumen Gentium 16 (Vatican 2 document) it says:
“But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(Rom. 1:21, 25) …Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”, (Mk. 16:16) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.”

God commands us to preach so we preach. And baptism of desire is harder to achieve than water baptism.

 

[The_Blunt_Brig]

Lumen Gentium (Vatican 2) in 14 says “Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

There you go. I think this is why we evangelize.

 

[SpringRose]

Thanks, Blunt Brig! So it sounds like we are saying that a person can have a saving faith through a right attitude toward God without having heard the gospel, but that that is not common, based on Romans 1. Do we have any Scriptural support for the idea that it is possible at all?

What about the verse that says, “faith comes by hearing”? Is it possible to have faith without hearing?

 

[Publisher]

The Light Within is present in all people…the possibility for any to be “saved” is not specifically based on human words…but on the Inner Word Spoken to each man and woman who seeks God.

 

[Miriam1947]

God decides who is going to be saved. And if that is a poor shepherd is some mountain village who has never heard of Jesus but is living with the natural law which is written in our hearts then why wouldn’t God save him?

I have never, since I was a child, understood how someone could go to Hell because they didn’t believe, if they had never even heard of Jesus or God or the gospel. It never made sense to me then and it still doesn’t some 60+ years later.

 

[fhansen]

What about the verse that says, “faith comes by hearing”? Is it possible to have faith without hearing?

Yes, it is possible, however imperfectly. Faith generally involves humility before a higher being, and, in this, man is at the very least recognizing his proper order in the created scheme of things, even if he cannot benefit from the direct revelation that we enjoy as Christians. God judges us on what we do with what we’re given (reference the Parable of the Talents as well as Luke 12:48)-ignorance always reduces culpability. Good Samaritans really can be good in God’s eyes. I also believe that all of Matt 25 is relevant here, but particularly verse 26.

I think the following statement by St John of the Cross encompasses a principle behind God’s attitude towards all mankind: “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love”. And yet this concise concept wouldn’t even exist IMO if not for the revelation that God has given the world through Christ. So we’re profoundly blest-the whole world is blest -by our Catholic faith even as it carries with it certain responsibilities, once it’s understood by the individual. The following is from the Catechism:

**843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
**

Also, from Vat II’s Nostra Aetate, commenting on other religions:
The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

 

[SteveVH]

"Are the decisions of the II Vatican Council still in effect? Lumen Gentium 16 includes a sentence which reads, “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.”

The purpose of the Church is to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and to teach them to obey everything Jesus has commanded. The Church has done this throughout her history and will never cease doing so.

If a person is condemned because of the failure of Christians to reach him and preach the Gospel then this person’s fate is in the hands of men, rather than God, is it not? What we do know is that God is all just, all loving and all merciful. He desires that none be lost; indeed, he gave his very life for this person. We also know that God has written his laws on the heart of man. So the native in the darkest reaches of the Amazon knows that it is wrong to steal, to take another man’s wife, to kill, to bear false witness, etc. He will be judged according to how he responds to God’s laws and only God knows how this person would respond to the Gospel had he had the opportunity to hear it.

Just so you know, the Catholic Church has never proclaimed that any particular person is in hell; not Hitler, not Stalin, not Nero, not Sadam Hussein; no one. One’s salvation is in the hands of God and God’s mercy is stronger than his justice.

Paul certainly didn’t believe this because he went everywhere with the Gospel of Jesus Christ so people could hear and believe and be saved, and when he encountered some who were going all over preaching the baptism of John and baptizing people, he instructed them in the Gospel, and their hearts were changed. Peter, in addressing the crowd after a crippled man had been healed in the temple area, said of Jesus particularly, “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12 ESV)"

The fact that Paul went everywhere preaching the Gospel is irrelevant to the question of what happens to one who has never heard the Gospel. Again, do you believe that one is automatically condemned because the Gospel had not yet reached him? Do you believe we have such a shallow God? Or do you believe that God would go to extraordinary lengths to save one of his children? Keep in mind, no one is saying that it doesn’t matter what one believes or how one lives their life. If we hear the Gospel we must respond. If we have never heard the Gospel we still must respond to God’s grace in whatever form it is given.

This question is coming from a Calvinist perspective which assumes that God has chosen everyone who is going to be saved and that if he chose a person from an unreached tribe he would send a missionary to preach the gospel to them because otherwise they could not be saved.

Well, the Catholic faith completely rejects that notion because it just isn’t true. If one holds to this belief of double predestination there is not much you can do, except to point out that it contradicts justice, free will and the mercy of God. That’s a whole other story. There have been some great threads on predestination. I would suggest that you read the arguments from both sides.

Calvinists also believe that it is impossible for a person to seek God without being changed by the Holy Spirit. In fairness, they do not take this as an excuse not to evangelize, rather they profess an urgency about evangelism, since none of us know whom God has chosen, we must obey his command to share to gospel with everyone we can because we might be his means of bringing someone to the Lord.

Again, we just don’t accept the premise. We believe that everyone has a chance to be saved according to how they respond to God’s grace, of their own free will. While we would agree that our desire to seek God is due to a prompting of the Holy Spirit, we also believe that we can reject this prompting. If we could not, we would be robots, not rational beings with free will.

I have backed off from the Calvinist view over the last year because I see problems with the doctrine of reprobation (God chooses that some people will go to hell–and that’s OK because we all deserve it anyway) being consistent with a loving God. I think I am now more comfortable with the Catholic/free will perspective, but of course that is not going to satisfy this person–I need a reply based on Scripture.

Why does this person get to set all the rules and why so you have to satisfy them? I would never agree that all answers have to be found in the Bible because it simply isn’t true, even if your friends believe it to be so. However, once again I would refer you to the threads on predestination as there is no need to rehash that here.

Also, I personally have a question about this statement from Vatican II. If people can be saved without knowing the gospel, is there a good reason to evangelize the unreached?

The fact that people can be saved outside of the normal means does not mean that they necessarily will be saved. No, we must continually preach the Gospel to bring Christ to the world. It is through Christ and his Church that God has provided the normal means of salvation. We just have to remember that God is not limited to the normal means of salvation,

 

[rossum]

Can a person be saved without hearing the gospel?

The Gospels were written after Jesus’ death. Everyone who died prior to that had never heard the full Gospel.

Was Noah saved? He didn’t hear the full Gospel. Abraham? Moses? David? All the OT prophets? John the Baptist and many many others… Was God somehow prevented from saving all those people should He have wished to?

What about Americans? Was God unable to save any Native American prior to the arrival of the first Christian missionaries carrying the Gospel? Is God’s saving power limited by the speed with which a sailing ship can cross the Atlantic? Somehow I don’t think so.

An aborted baby has never heard the Gospel. Does God lack the power to save that baby?

Yes, a person can be saved without hearing the Gospel.

rossum

 

[flameburns623]

Somehow, the proclamation of the Gospel acts in the souls and lives of people in the most efficacious way to ensure the maximum likelihood of those souls salvation.

However, God acts in the lives of all to bring all of His children to Him. How Gods grace works to effect salvation via the Baptism of Desire is something of a mystery, but the Church does teach that this is possible.

We proclaim the Gospel because God commands it and because it is the ordinary means by which the Holy Ghost works to save. And because the Church is the conduit of many graces and helps for souls on the path unto the Father.

But God is free to act on behalf of souls outside of these ordinary means, and e trust Him, as a true and loving Father, to do so as He deems fit.

Hope this helps!

 

[SteveVH]

The Gospels were written after Jesus’ death. Everyone who died prior to that had never heard the full Gospel.

Was Noah saved? He didn’t hear the full Gospel. Abraham? Moses? David? All the OT prophets? John the Baptist and many many others… Was God somehow prevented from saving all those people should He have wished to?

What about Americans? Was God unable to save any Native American prior to the arrival of the first Christian missionaries carrying the Gospel? Is God’s saving power limited by the speed with which a sailing ship can cross the Atlantic? Somehow I don’t think so.

An aborted baby has never heard the Gospel. Does God lack the power to save that baby?

Yes, a person can be saved without hearing the Gospel.

rossum

Exactly!

 

[Doxiemom]

We simply do not know what God does in these cases upon their death.

I think that the failure for the Gosple to reach some ears is our fault and not the fault of the person.

God is perfectly capable of picking up the slack and offering Himself in that moment. People are who they are and will do exactly as they would have done on this side of life. And so their fate will be decided. They will choose.

When we pray the Lord’s prayer we refer to what we have done and what we have failed to do. I am confident at judgement we will have to account for our failures and Jesus will show us all that we were capable of accomplishing for His Kingdom if only we had.

 

[Limerickman]

The Gospels were written after Jesus’ death. Everyone who died prior to that had never heard the full Gospel.

Was Noah saved? He didn’t hear the full Gospel. Abraham? Moses? David? All the OT prophets? John the Baptist and many many others… Was God somehow prevented from saving all those people should He have wished to?

What about Americans? Was God unable to save any Native American prior to the arrival of the first Christian missionaries carrying the Gospel? Is God’s saving power limited by the speed with which a sailing ship can cross the Atlantic? Somehow I don’t think so.

An aborted baby has never heard the Gospel. Does God lack the power to save that baby?

Yes, a person can be saved without hearing the Gospel.

rossum

It depends on whether having heard the Gospel a person rejects that Gospel.

The point you make is correct. Those who never heard the Gospel can be saved.
But those that have heard it and have decided to reject it, what of them?

My own view is that they seal their own fate.

 

[flameburns623]

It’s not entirely accurate to say that one can be saved “without the Gospel”.

It’s more accurate to say that the Light of Christ can reveal that Gospel interiorly and implicitly to someone who lives and dies never hearing that Gospel preached overtly and/or explicitly.

 

[manualman]

We catholics have a pretty strict rule to remember about God: HE’s God, we’re not. Repeat as necessary. It’s his job to judge at the end. He’s revealed Christ to be the Savior of fallen mankind, we know that. How the EXACT mechanics of all that work we have only the tiniest inkling.

I think of it like this: Humanity is a shipwreck. Through negligence (sin) we’ve ruined the vessel given to us and were in need of rescue. Christ came as our Savior and erected the Church and the Sacraments as a new ship to carry us safely to shore (heaven). There may be some who believe in Christ, but through honest mistake reject his Church that Christ will ALSO somehow bring to shore. There may also be some who mistakenly reject the NAME of Christ because of a fundamentally misunderstood notion of who Jesus is, but who in their hearts accept His offer of Grace and Salvation. These also He rescues.

CS Lewis told the tale better than I do in his last Narnia book “The Last Battle.” In it a young nobleman of the invading army nominally worships Taash (the devil), but in the deepest part of his soul has really embraced Aslan (Christ) and it shows in his behavior. He too is welcomed home at the final judgement.

What it all amounts to is that Salvation is depedent on people accepting the Grace of Salvation offered by Christ, not merely by mouthing the correct words or attending the right church. Accepting the gifts of the Church and the Sacraments gave surely make it one heck of a lot easier! But you can’t necessarily say that a shipwreck victim CAN’T survive unless he gets on the rescue ship. That said, he’s pretty dumb if he recognizes her as a rescue ship and prefers to find his own route ashore. Likewise for us on the ship if we fail to toss a line to those struggling in the water and rationalize it saying “who knows,he might find another way home.”

 

[SpringRose]

Thanks, everyone, for the helpful thoughts, ideas, and references. I have just finished a response, which I pray will strengthen the relationship and foster understanding. If anyone is interested, pm me and I will send you what I wrote.

Happy Resurrection Day!

 

[CalCatholic]

The Gospels were written after Jesus’ death. Everyone who died prior to that had never heard the full Gospel.

The word Gospel means ‘the Good News’ and in the context of the New Testament refers broadly to the whole revelation of salvation by Christ. After Christ’s death and resurrection, the Good News was proclaimed orally by his disciples for 30+ years before the first of the four written Gospels were written down in its current form.

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[ffg]

I think something to consider is intent.

So many people focus on the Good Book’s words and think that knowing or hearing them IS the intent of the book.

The books weren’t written at the time of the teaching.

Jesus also didn’t say “know the words that will be written of me at a later date”.

We are to LIVE as taught. Not just know the teaching.

Those who know the teaching, much is expected of them in their DAILY LIVING.

Notice this is not to say that if we do what we are taught we are saved, there is 1 judge and we are owed nothing.

But if we show Him through our life that we honestly want His love by loving Him and loving His people (our neighbors), He will provide for His children.