Can a Pope promulgate an invalid sacrament?

[mgrfin]

MGRFIN:

QUOTE]

You were never accused of heresy.

Please tell me as a believing Roman Catholic could you imagine that the infallible Holy Father could promulgate an invalid sacrament.

First of all, the sacraments were given to us by Jesus Christ. The book is closed on that.

Some posters on this website would like Roman Catholics to believe that there is something amiss in the Canon of the Mass, and that the words of Consecration have been changed, in their opinion, and so the Eucharist is now invalid.

It is they who are promoting an ‘invalid’ sacrament, which in fact are not invalid.

As for charity, please review my posts. A group have been attacking me for days, and I do nothing but ooze charity - I do not attack back with uncharitable posts.

Charity towards all our posters, and remember them in our prayers.

peace

 

[bear06]

Please dont critize until you have walked a mile in somebody else’s sandals.

Cardinal Mahoney has problems, but they are not personal. He has 5 million souls to care for, and very narrow means to do so. I came from the East Coast and the Los Angeles diocese was always understood to be a very conservative place. It still is. Cardinal Mahoney guides it as he wills, as he sees the pace that is appropriate.

Pray for all the souls of us in Los Angeles (and Long Beach).

peace

Please. We’re not allowed to criticize disobeying the pope unless we’re a cardinal? You may have come from Rochester so L.A. looks conservative compared to that but the L.A. Archdiocese is anhything but conservative and Cardinal Mahoney is moving the people farther away from conservative not slowly closer to it. He encourages disobedience.
Just take a look at this partial list of speakers at his Religious Education Congress or as we Californians like to call it, the Dissent Fest.

Scott Appleby, Dr.Tom Beaudoin, Rev. Michael Crosby, Rev. John Cusick, Msgr. Ray East, Rev. Rev. Virgillio Elizondo, Sr. Barbara Fiand, Richard Fragomeni, Edwina Gatley, Greer Gordon, Thomas Groome, Rev. Gwynne Guibord, David Haas, Rev. Marty Haugen, Rev. John Heagle, Rev. Brian Massingale, Dr. Megan McKenna, Fr. Chris Ponnet Rev. Timothy Radcliffe, Rev. Alexia Salvatierra, Fr. Thomas Sweetser, Jim Wallis, Tom Zanzig,

Do you know who any of these people are?! What they preach?! This is a very, very bad deal. Cardinal Mahoney invites these people to come and some of the past conferences have actually been worse.

 

[Aramis]

You are spreading falsehoods. There is no such ‘mass’ without matter and form of the eucharist.

The words of consecration were inserted.

peace

No, the words “Take, Eat, This is My Body” (nor their syriac equivalents) are in fact NOT in the consecration under the Anaphora of Addai and Mari.

That the instruction to do so is referenced in the 3rd person means the institution narrative is in fact in there. But it is not the explicit use of the words of institution.

It is the only approved consecration that lacks the words of institution. And while the formula in use dates to the 700’s, the anaphora is said to date back further.

And it is a valid consecration, for it includes the instruction narrative (in a disjointed but sufficient way), and the epiclesis (the invocation fo the Holy Spirit to change the gifts), and the needed commemorations.

 

[mgrfin]

Please. We’re not allowed to criticize disobeying the pope unless we’re a cardinal? You may have come from Rochester so L.A. looks conservative compared to that but the L.A. Archdiocese is anhything but conservative and Cardinal Mahoney is moving the people farther away from conservative not slowly closer to it. He encourages disobedience.
Just take a look at this partial list of speakers at his Religious Education Congress or as we Californians like to call it, the Dissent Fest.

Scott Appleby, Dr.Tom Beaudoin, Rev. Michael Crosby, Rev. John Cusick, Msgr. Ray East, Rev. Rev. Virgillio Elizondo, Sr. Barbara Fiand, Richard Fragomeni, Edwina Gatley, Greer Gordon, Thomas Groome, Rev. Gwynne Guibord, David Haas, Rev. Marty Haugen, Rev. John Heagle, Rev. Brian Massingale, Dr. Megan McKenna, Fr. Chris Ponnet Rev. Timothy Radcliffe, Rev. Alexia Salvatierra, Fr. Thomas Sweetser, Jim Wallis, Tom Zanzig,

Do you know who any of these people are?! What they preach?! This is a very, very bad deal. Cardinal Mahoney invites these people to come and some of the past conferences have actually been worse.

You don’t have to listen to these speakers if you don’t want to.

Maybe, like me, to the best of my ability, pray for people with whom you don’t agree, and have charity first, especially when it comes to our hierarchy.

You can always write to Rome to the CDF to complain. Cardinal Levada knows Cardinal Mahoney, and I am sure he would be happy to talk to him about it.

peace

 

[bear06]

You don’t have to listen to these speakers if you don’t want to.

That’s your argument!!! NOBODY should be listening to these speakers and NOBODY who contradicts Catholic teaching should be invited by a Catholic Cardinal to give a lecture!!!

Maybe, like me, to the best of my ability, pray for people with whom you don’t agree, and have charity first, especially when it comes to our hierarchy.

 

[mgrfin]

That’s your argument!!! NOBODY should be listening to these speakers and NOBODY who contradicts Catholic teaching should be invited by a Catholic Cardinal to give a lecture!!!

 

[bear06]

You seem to be avoiding the whole disobedience issue. Don’t you have a problem with it?

I have taken my licks from the SVs, Feeneyites, and ultra-traditionalists on this site, but I have given as good as I got if not better.

And? This has nothing to do with the hypocrisy of going after them for their disobedience but ignoring Cardinal Mahoney’s.

If it causes you to pull your hair out, or makes your eyes hurt, get a hobby.

So much drama. I’m hardly losing sleep over your posts. That said, you could probably say my hobby is defending the faith. Is it not yours? Like I said, you seem all charged up to defend against the likes of Lefebvre. Why not the disobedience of Mahoney? The truth is not based on the kindness people show us. My last bishop confirmed me. That didn’t mean that I turned a blind eye to the atrocities (and I do mean atrocities) allowed under his reign. I’ve always been quite cordial with him and I even still kiss his ring when the occasion arises. It doesn’t do anyone any good to agree to disobedience - not him, Cardinal Mahoney, me nor my children.

We should pray for our fellow posters, and wish them well in all charity, which I wish for you.

Agreed. That said, these forums are for discussion. We’re not simply here to pray for each other. We are here to discuss.

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

And may I ask, when did I accuse you of heresy? And when did my posts not ooze christian charity?

If you believed that the Pope could propose an invalid sacrament, you would be falling into the error of the SV’s which we are not permitted to discuss, for any reason. And I will not discuss.

I am sure you are aware that the Traditional site at Catholic Forums is (are) swarmed by Sedevacantists - and this topic is now banned, and swarmed by Traditionalists (ultra) who are followers of Msgr. Lefebreve, who are schismatics, declared so by JPII in “Ecclesia Dei”, and by Feeneyites who are anti-Semitic, and push to unreasonable extremes EENS, to where they excoriate pronouncements of Vatican II - not that I know you are proponent of any of these stances.

However, in the recent past, topics have been proposed on the Traditional site by individuals espousing some of the above. They invariably use a person who is ‘new’ to CF, and propose these naive questions which are jumping off posts for the above - not that you are guilty of any of this.

Are you a Feenyite by any chance, or a follower of SSPX, or Msgr Lefebreve?

We pray for all of those who are seeking the truth, and hold them dear to our hearts with all charity in our prayers.

peace

I am not a Feenyite, because although EENS is a Catholic dogma, it is clear from Tradition that the Church includes those who, through no fault of their own, are separated from visible communion with Rome. For more information, see ewtn.org/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT.

I am not a follower of the SSPX. How could I be if I attend the Novus Ordo every Sunday? The fact is that, despite their claims to the contrary, they are schismatic (and I honestly don’t care if the excommunication decree was worded improperly; the Holy Father, not Archbishop Lefebvre, decides who is schismatic), and their confessions and marriages are invalid. As such, they pose a great danger to the Faithful, made all the more potent by the fact that they claim to be in full communion with Rome.

I asked a question. Rather than answering it, you attacked my personal faith. That doesn’t seem to “ooze Christian charity” to me.

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

Also, as you can see from my signature, I am a sincere admirer of Popes John XXIII (who, of course, called Vatican II) and Pius XII (who began the process of liturgical reform and whose encyclicals are quoted in the Vatican II documents more than any other source). So I’m not sure where you got the idea that I am not faithful to the living Magesterium of the Church. As another poster pointed out, I asked a question, as is my right. You seemed to jump on that question to promote your own personal agenda.

 

[apgwilym]

Let’s take this from the top.
(1) What authority did Marie Julie Jahenny have?
None, regardless of whether her revelations are approved or not. No private revelation is binding as of faith, and so cannot have any authority.
(2) There is no ‘new Mass’. Pope Paul VI approved a new liturgical form of the Roman liturgy. The Mass has not changed since the Last Supper.
(3) Can the Pope approve a false rite of the Mass?
Absolutely not. Those who believe otherwise must imagine that Christ’s Vicar can bind 1.2 billion Catholics to an impious rite. The Council of Trent says this is not possible:
"If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of Masses are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema."

 

[Mike30]

Come on fellas. Five year old thread with no movement in five years.

 

[otjm]

Well, it might be an old post, but it certainly had some interesting information concerning the Anaphora. but for it popping up again, I would never have seen it.