Can a Protestant Explain This to Me?

[BernadetteM]

Are you sure they reject that? Because from what you described, they basically said their loved ones are able to watch over them and pray on their behalf. That’s not something I would say, but they do.

They deny it? My initial reaction is “Apparently not.” My next thought is “Hey, did you ask them?” You don’t know until you ask, right?

Are you sure that’s what her church teaches? I mean, they could. It’s possible. But it’s also possible that your friend continues to believe some things that are held over from something in her past.

Did she grow up fundamentalist? If so, she may have picked up some stuff from other places. If not, she was probably involved in something(s) other than fundamentalism that she drifted out of more or less amicably, and then she wound up in fundamentalism but held onto some of the other stuff too.

Do you know her parents? That could explain some of this, too. It could be that her parents practiced something other than fundamentalism, and while she didn’t wind up landing in the same place as them, some of the individual beliefs within the system got passed down to her because they’re her parents.

I don’t know if I’m any more capable of telling you “why this is” than a Catholic would be. The thing you probably need to do (if you really want to know) is just talk to your friends and say, “Hey, this is what you believe. Why do you believe that?” I’m sure they’ll tell you.

I have known her for years and years and know exactly what she believes. She was brought up in the Disciples of Christ, but she and her parents did not attend often. She was not religious nor her husband until a friend took her to her church as my friend was looking into the JW’s. She is greatly influenced by others, is not an independent thinker and has never gone beyond the Bible to know the history of the Christian faith.

She does not believe in the Communion of Saints as Catholics understand it. She does believe that her husband went to Heaven. Her church does teach that you must have faith and if you don’t have enough faith, then you won’t be healed. She has been indoctrinated for many years. She also shares the problems within her own church as her cousin is the Pastor and it is a mega church. He and his brother don’t speak because his brother decided to start his own church. There are so many judgemental attitudes taught, although she is a lovely person and is kind, she also has problems within herself and is not a strong person. I am very careful when speaking with her about the Catholic Church as I know that she is anti Catholic. Her life is her church and her children. She has no friends outside of her church, except for me. So there is no one to disagree with what she has been taught. When her husband was alive he was the head of the family and was not questioned, she believed everything he said and he had very strong opinions about his perspective of what was true or not.

She has been waiting for 30 years for the end of the world. This is also one of her churches beliefs. In my opinion people should question what their church teaches and research where it came from and use their intellect to make decisions, not just their heart. I am glad that at least she feels that her loved one is watching over her, as it gives her some peace.

I don’t believe in trying to convert other Christians to become Catholics unless they show a desire to know what the Church teaches. It is not my place, but the Holy Spirits to lead a person to the Church.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[Bill_Pick]

Most Protestants, except for some Episcopalians/Anglicans) don’t believe in the Communion of Saints. They tell us that we are communicating with the dead and that the Saints are dead and can’t hear us.

My question is in the past I have had two different fundamentalist protestants tell me experiences in their lives that they accept as from God.

The first one was a friend whose brother needed transplants or he would die shortly. After his father died, within two months her brother received two transplants. Her family attributed this to the prayers of her father now that he was in heaven. If that isn’t what Catholics would describe as believing in the Communion of Saints I don’t know what you would call it.

Just a couple of months ago my friends husband died unexpectantly. Her friend called her and told her she had a vision of the husband riding in a chariot and light was all around him. He told her that he was watching over my friend and her family. Now both of these fundamentalist that reject that we can ask Saints and our loved ones to pray for us once they have died believe that their loved ones were able to help them and also communicate with them.

I just wondered how protestants who condemn us for asking for prayers of the Saints can accept that not only has the one’s father helped him to get the transplants, but another actually heard the departed husband speak to her and saw him, can explain this contradiction in their beliefs. I just listen and never mention that this is what the Communion of Saints is, because they would deny it.

The one thing about my friend’s church whose husband died is that she now blames herself as her faith wasn’t strong enough. This is another teaching of theirs. She is very depressed as it is and feeling that it was her fault is a shame. One of her pastors told her that Satan took her husband. I do have to wonder about some of these churches and the guilt they place on their flock.

Many also believe that God speaks to them directly, which I can accept, but not daily or weekly as some attest to.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

God is a God of the living and not a God of the dead MK 12;26-27

 

[Rexpi]

What is that “cloud of witnesses” referred to in Hebrews 12:1 that we “are surrounded by?” And isn’t a witness someone who “sees, hears, or knows by personal presence and experience?” I’m of the opinion that the faithful who have departed have a pretty good view.

Angels. They see, hear and know everything we humans do.
Bible is really clear regarding dead. We dont need to interpret nothing since is really clear… but its also clear that Satan exists and he and his angels deceive many, we have to be careful.

 

[Cat]

My only problem with believing in the communion of Saints (which I want to) is that I thought there would be no pain in heaven, but how could that be if for instance, the Virgin Mary sees some of her children starving, dying of disease, experiencing emotional trauma, being abused etc. and be happy? That doesn’t make sense to me

I spent the first 47 years of my life as an involved evangelical Protestant.

According to the Bible–Rev. 6:9-11 “And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been should be completed also.”

I would suggest reading this passage in context with the first 12 chapters or so of Revelation.

This passage makes it very clear that those who are in heaven can see what is happening on earth and are aware of the horrors of sin, and that they remember what happened to them, and that they are petitioning the Lord to do something about it.

Another passage to be aware of is the story of the Transfiguration, especially the version in Luke chapter 9. It says that Moses and Elijah were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

Again, it’s very clear that those in heaven KNOW what’s going on here on earth.

I think that the teaching about “no more tears” applies to the New Heavens and New Earth, which will happen AFTER Christ’s return. Right now, we’re still in the Age of the Church, and those in heaven are still aware of sin and its tragic consequences.

As for the OP’s question–I have seen over the years that a lot of evangelical Protestants (and Disciples of Christ would be considered evangelical and also part of the Restoration Movement) believe all kinds of things because they are allowed to do so.

The doctrines of various evangelical Protestant fellowships are based on the Bible alone, and one of the principle doctrines is that each Christian is free to interpret the Bible on their own relying on the Holy Spirit. This means that as they study the Bible and experience life, many evangelical Christians become convicted of certain truths that may not necessarily be taught by their church; e.g., the truth that those in heaven can and do still see and hear us and pray for us. It’s right there in the Bible, in the first 12 chapters of Revelation.

My MIL and FIL have come to believe the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints. All their lives, they have been staunchly anti-Catholic (they were Assemblies of God most of their lives, and now attend a United Methodist Church). But when my nephew, their grandson, was diagnosed with cancer at the age of 2, they were willing to accept any prayers, and visited the Shrine of Our Lady of the Snows several times to request prayer for the little guy.

A few months ago, my mother in law told me a story very simliar to the OPs–that she KNEW that relatives in heaven were praying for the little guy’s healing! She was adamant–I have the feeling that she saw them praying in some kind of vision.

The evangelical Christians who are part of the charismatic movement (Assemblies of God, Foursquare Gospel, Pentecostal, etc.) are very open to miracles, including healing miracles and even the raising of the dead. I think these Christians are more likely than other evangelicals to believe in Communion of the Saints and the prayers of those Christians who have passed on to their reward.

As for evangelicals who are not part of the charismatic movement, they see it in the Bible, and since they believe in the Bible, they have to accept it or find a way around it! But many of these Christians, when faced with a tragedy or some other trial in their lives, become convinced that the Christians in heaven really are praying for them. They don’t know that this is a “doctrine” of the Catholic Church–they just consider it part of the blessings of being a Christian.

 

[JRKH]

I spent the first 47 years of my life as an involved evangelical Protestant.

According to the Bible–Rev. 6:9-11 “And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe **and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer **until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been should be completed also.”

I would suggest reading this passage in context with the first 12 chapters or so of Revelation.

This passage makes it very clear that those who are in heaven can see what is happening on earth and are aware of the horrors of sin, and that they remember what happened to them, and that they are petitioning the Lord to do something about it.

The Bolded part struck me interesting.
Those who believe that the dead “sleep” and therefore are unaware, should take note. God tells them tha they "shouldrest a while longer.
Meaning that they have been “resting” and yet are “aware”.

Just something I noticed.

Peace
James

 

[Nominefili]

Most Protestants, except for some Episcopalians/Anglicans) don’t believe in the Communion of Saints. They tell us that we are communicating with the dead and that the Saints are dead and can’t hear us.

My question is in the past I have had two different fundamentalist protestants tell me experiences in their lives that they accept as from God.

The first one was a friend whose brother needed transplants or he would die shortly. After his father died, within two months her brother received two transplants. Her family attributed this to the prayers of her father now that he was in heaven. If that isn’t what Catholics would describe as believing in the Communion of Saints I don’t know what you would call it.

Just a couple of months ago my friends husband died unexpectantly. Her friend called her and told her she had a vision of the husband riding in a chariot and light was all around him. He told her that he was watching over my friend and her family. Now both of these fundamentalist that reject that we can ask Saints and our loved ones to pray for us once they have died believe that their loved ones were able to help them and also communicate with them.

I just wondered how protestants who condemn us for asking for prayers of the Saints can accept that not only has the one’s father helped him to get the transplants, but another actually heard the departed husband speak to her and saw him, can explain this contradiction in their beliefs. I just listen and never mention that this is what the Communion of Saints is, because they would deny it.

The one thing about my friend’s church whose husband died is that she now blames herself as her faith wasn’t strong enough. This is another teaching of theirs. She is very depressed as it is and feeling that it was her fault is a shame. One of her pastors told her that Satan took her husband. I do have to wonder about some of these churches and the guilt they place on their flock.

Many also believe that God speaks to them directly, which I can accept, but not daily or weekly as some attest to.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

I can’t comment on ‘mainline protestantism’ but I’d be happy to explain the Lutheran position. We do believe that those who die in the faith are in heaven praying for us in the eschatological marriage feast of the Lamb described in chapters 3-8 of Revelation. For Lutherans, these events in Revelation are not only occurring the future, but are indeed occurring now as saints who die in the faith are, according to Christ’s promise, ‘with Him in paradise.’

They can certainly pray for us. The question is whether or not we can pray to them to pray for us. This may seem to be a merely semantic disagreement at first, but it is important for us to not direct our prayers to anyone except the Triune God of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If the saints pray for us, fantastic! Our heavenly Father certainly hear those prayers. But the saints in heaven do not hear ours from earth; only our heavenly Father does.

Hope that helps you understand our position a bit better.

 

[JonNC]

I can’t comment on ‘mainline protestantism’ but I’d be happy to explain the Lutheran position. We do believe that those who die in the faith are in heaven praying for us in the eschatological marriage feast of the Lamb described in chapters 3-8 of Revelation. For Lutherans, these events in Revelation are not only occurring the future, but are indeed occurring now as saints who die in the faith are, according to Christ’s promise, ‘with Him in paradise.’

They can certainly pray for us. The question is whether or not we can pray to them to pray for us. This may seem to be a merely semantic disagreement at first, but it is important for us to not direct our prayers to anyone except the Triune God of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If the saints pray for us, fantastic! Our heavenly Father certainly hear those prayers. But the saints in heaven do not hear ours from earth; only our heavenly Father does.

Hope that helps you understand our position a bit better.

Here is the issue I have with the bolded. I don’t believe a Catholic would claim that they pray to the Blessed Virgin or the saints in the same manner as they would pray to God. The prays they direct to the saints would be more in line with our requests for intercession from fellow members that you and I as Lutherans do every Sunday as part of the Prayer of the Church.
Therefore, it doesn’t seem to me a matter of improperly directing prayer to someone other than God. If it is, then so is asking (praying) others to pray for us or a sick loved one. For me, then, it comes down to can they hear our individual requests for intercession.

Jon