Can christians be spies?

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I know this sounds crazy, but I just thought that, sometimes, spies have to lie, deceive, seduce and even kill people that are dangerous to their countries, such as terrorists, or maybe they just have to keep gathering information about vile countries such as communist China.

I know these are all sins, but one could argue that spies that commit these actions are sacrificying themselves in order to keep other safe and undermine evil countries.

I imagine that being a spy for a decent country (unlike China or Russia, for exemple) and spying for a legit cause (thwarting a real terrorist threat) would be justifiable.
 
Kiko2911 said:
I know this sounds crazy, but I just thought that, sometimes, spies have to lie, deceive, seduce and even kill people that are dangerous to their countries, such as terrorists,
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Some aspects of covert work may involve those things. But, working in intelligence is primarily information gathering and monitoring. There are many jobs in intelligence that do not require subterfuge or immoral activities.
Kiko2911 said:
or maybe they just have to keep gathering information about vile countries such as communist China.
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While the policies of China might be “vile”, the people are not vile. The people have the same dignity as everyone else, and they are our brothers and sisters.
Kiko2911 said:
I know these are all sins, but one could argue that spies that commit these actions are sacrificying themselves in order to keep other safe and undermine evil countries.
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We may never do evil, even in the pursuit of good.
Kiko2911 said:
I imagine that being a spy for a decent country (unlike China or Russia, for exemple) and spying for a legit cause (thwarting a real terrorist threat) would be justifiable.
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Well, the US has done a lot of NOT-decent things as have many other countries you probably put in the “decent” category. I think you oversimplify when you categorize countries into “decent” and “not decent”.

I think it’s better to remember we may never do evil, even in the pursuit of good. The ends do not justify the means. That is Catholic teaching.

We may certainly participate in the government, in intelligence work, in the military, but we must do so while maintaining our Catholic principles.

And, remember, Joshua was sent as a spy into Canaan.
 
I know it’s rhetorical, but it depends. I think you can only be a soldier if you’re on the right side - if there is one. In my perspective, nazi soldiers should defect, for exemple.
 
Working in intelligence is not exactly like movies or novels describe.

No, a Christian cannot seduce people for money, however, pretending to be another person in an intelligence corps is like acting in a play. Acting is not lying.

Edit to add: Intelligence agents do not just kill people. They would defend themselves or other people. Assassinations are a violation of international law, of the US law, and likely of many other countries. Again, not like in Hollywood.
 
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Of course. Many Christians have been spies over the centuries. You would deny someone their Christian identity because they are part of a spy network and serving their country!?
 
Certainly, but it would be naive to think that intelligence services only act “legally”. Recently, an Iranian scientist that was involved in the development of nuclear weapons was killed in a very sophisticated way (by a satellite-controled machine gun, it seems). The secret service that did that (Israel or USA I’m guessing) probably deemed it was a necessary step to be taken, because Iran isn’t that friendly. It’s in these situations I was wondering if doing something on that level could be justified.
 
TheLittleLady said:
Working in intelligence is not exactly like movies or novels describe.

No, a Christian cannot seduce people for money, however, pretending to be another person in an intelligence corps is like acting in a play. Acting is not lying.

Edit to add: Intelligence agents do not just kill people. They would defend themselves or other people. Assassinations are a violation of international law, of the US law, and likely of many other countries. Again, not like in Hollywood.
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No it is not ike acting.

You go into a movie theatre knowing that Julia Roberts is not actually her character in Pretty Woman, ypu go into the theatre knowing that David Tennant is not actually Hamlet Prince of Denmark and so on.

It is an open and voluntary agreement between audience and actors to mutually suspend disbelief.

And it is for purposes of nothing more nefarious than entertainment.
 
Kiko2911 said:
I know this sounds crazy, but I just thought that, sometimes, spies have to lie, deceive, seduce and even kill people that are dangerous to their countries, such as terrorists, or maybe they just have to keep gathering information about vile countries such as communist China.
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A Christian can be a spy without sinning. On deceiving and lying, these can be morally justified by mental reservation - the idea that one should choose justice over truth when the two are at odds. This was a common tool of Jesuit Missionaries who preached in countries where Catholicism was illegal - sometimes they needed to disguise themselves so others couldn’t know they were priests, and sometimes they needed to tell authorities “I am not a priest” to avoid capture.

As for killing, this depends. If the war effort the spy is part of is a just one, and the targets are lawful combatants, then it’s no more sinful than a soldier killing enemies on the battlefield. Just because someone isn’t directly holding a gun doesn’t mean he isn’t trying to hurt you or the people you care about.

On seducing, I’m pretty sure having sex as part of that is still a sin. There might be some cases where it’s excusable due to duress - like a spy who escapes prison and impending execution by sleeping with a guard - but those circumstances would be pretty rare. If seduction doesn’t include sex, like if the spy plays “hard to get”, then it probably just falls under mental reservation.
 
redcatholic said:
Of course. Many Christians have been spies over the centuries. You would deny someone their Christian identity because they are part of a spy network and serving their country!?
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Hmm. I’m not sure the answer is such an obvious “of course”! As far as I understand, it’s actually an open question in Catholic theology (that we’re allowed to debate) as to whether lying (presumably required of most spies) is ever morally acceptable. Obviously most notably, St. Thomas Aquinas argued that lying is never morally acceptable, even when someone else’s life is threatened unless you lie. Also obviously, Catholics are not obliged to agree with St. Thomas just because he’s St. Thomas, and other theologians argue that lying (especially for reasons like saving a life) is morally justified.

But what I don’t think can be said is that “the answer is an obvious “of course”!” in either direction.

Personally I lean towards St. Thomas’s view, and don’t think I could personally be a spy or participate in deceit as part of my income-generating activities (or any other activities). But I wouldn’t categorically state that I’m certain no one else should be permitted to practice deceit if they believe it will save lives etc. I’m not God; I don’t actually know what’s “right” and can only do my best in my own life according to my own conscience and private judgment, and not go further than the Church goes in teaching a matter of faith and morals, when it comes to other people.

I do know I’m looking forward to the promised episode of Jimmy Akin’s Mysterious World where he finally discusses this question. 🙂 He’s been promising to delve into this whenever spying comes up as a peripheral part of a mystery he’s discussing.
 
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Yes indeed they can. Remember that Americans spied on Nazi Germany by having spies in Nazi Germany and it’s occupied countries. And spying ran a gamit, such as having assets in the countries, electronic warfare, reconnaissance photography over enemies territory, code-breaking, etc.
 
I spent a 33-year career in intel, 22 years of which was at NSA. During that time I did spend some time working with the folks from Langley, and I eventually came to the conclusion that while I could have been an analyst at CIA, I could never have been an actual agent. @LilyM is right – it’s not the same thing as acting. If an actor screws up on stage, the worst that can happen is that someone laughs at him. Or, maybe he loses his job. If a CIA agent screws up, people can get killed. Perhaps even the agent himself.

D
 
It would also depend if they are a double agent or triple agent, this makes a big difference in their end goal.
 
The obvious part is that while we can debate all we want about the theology, hundreds and thousands of Christians have been part of various forms of intelligence for their kingdoms or countries. And we should charitably assume that they were good Christians. So obviously Christians can be spies because many have been.
 
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