Can God could be cognitively open to free will?

[Bahman]

Free will is the most import attribute of our being. Here I am providing two arguments the first one is about the fact that no-one can understand free will cognitively. The second argument is about the fact that God cannot create a being with free will.

A) One cannot be cognitively open to free will:

1. Free will is the ability to choose one option among at lease two options
2. Assume that we are cognitively open to free will
3. This means that given the option one can precisely know the outcome
4. This means that our action is like outcome of a function
5. This means that our action are not free
6. So by now we should agree that either free will is not real or we cannot be connectivity open to free will.

B) God cannot create a being with free will:

1. God can create being with free will
2. God needs to be cognitively open to free will in order to create a being with free will.
3. From A6) we learn that God cannot be cognitively open to free will otherwise the being is not free.
4. Creation a person with free will is logically impossible.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Free will is the most import attribute of our being. Here I am providing two arguments the first one is about the fact that no-one can understand free will cognitively. The second argument is about the fact that God cannot create a being with free will.

A) One cannot be cognitively open to free will:

1. Free will is the ability to choose one option among at lease two options
2. Assume that we are cognitively open to free will
3. This means that given the option one can precisely know the outcome
4. This means that our action is like outcome of a function
5. This means that our action are not free
6. So by now we should agree that either free will is not real or we cannot be connectivity open to free will.

B) God cannot create a being with free will:

1. God can create being with free will
2. God needs to be cognitively open to free will in order to create a being with free will.
3. From A6) we learn that God cannot be cognitively open to free will otherwise the being is not free.
4. Creation a person with free will is logically impossible.

I think you need to edit your signature. It isn’t consistent with your “argument.”

 

[ProdglArchitect]

In group A, you break down at point 3. We cannot cognitively know the outcome of a choice. We can make assumptions about the outcome of a choice, but we cannot know them. Also, point four is a non-sequitur form point three. Even if we -could- know the outcomes, they are not derived by a function, but rather though a successive series of choices, each with at least two potential outcomes (per your point one).

In group B, I’ve shown that group A is incorrect, so any conclusion which draws from it lacks a solid foundation. Ergo, your conclusion in point B, which relies on your conclusion from point A plus a non-sequitur, is not substantiated by anything you’ve said.

Also, you might want to explain what you mean by “cognitively open to free will.” The way you put it is very vague, and open to different understandings. When you’re trying to make a point, you want to be as specific as possible.

---

As to the question of the reality of free will in relation to an omnipotent creator; the problem is that you are only viewing free will in terms of a linear succession of causes and effects. To us, one choice leads to another, and another and another. We view time as a line which moves form beginning to end.

God, on the other hand, is outside of time. He does not see time in terms of a progression, but rather as an Eternal “Now.” What we see at choice A, leading to Choice B, … leading to choice n; God sees as choice AB…n; The sum result of our choices is just as present and real to Him as the individual choices themselves. This is a reality we simply cannot comprehend this fully precisely because we are limited to understanding time as a flow, which moves forwards. We cannot see the results of our free will-choices, but God can. This is no way impedes our ability to make those choices.

Think of it this way. A teacher has a student who never does the homework, never studies, and never writes a single answer on the tests. The teacher knows, beyond any doubt, that this student will not pass the class. The fact that the teacher knows the student is going to fail doesn’t mean that the teacher caused the student to fail though. The failure is still the result of their choices.

 

[seagal]

As usual your arguments are convoluted and make no sense.

A) One cannot be cognitively open to free will:

1. Free will is the ability to choose one option among at lease two options
2. Assume that we are cognitively open to free will
3. This means that given the option one can precisely know the outcome
   I don’t agree with #3 unless you are talking actions in the minutest detail. I come to a fork in the road where I can go right or left. I choose right. The only outcome I can be sure of is the my next step will take me to the right. But looking further ahead I have no idea what will happen going down this road. I can only know what is happening now. You can say that each succeeding step is an exercise in free will in which I make a decision, but still I can’t predict any further than the next step.
4. This means that our action is like outcome of a function.
   If the function is the means by which I make a decision, which is a function of my thought processes, then OK.
5. This means that our action are not free
   That doesn’t follow, unless you want to say that there is an outside agent controlling my actions. But you didn’t include that in this argument.
6. So by now we should agree that either free will is not real or we cannot be connectivity open to free will.
   Nope I don’t agree.

Your argument as I understand it boils down this: that because I use my mind to weigh options and consequences, come up with a plan, and then act on it, then I don’t have free will. On the contrary, that sounds exactly like free will.

B) God cannot create a being with free will:

1. God can create being with free will
2. God needs to be cognitively open to free will in order to create a being with free will.
   I’ll go along with that.
3. From A6) we learn that God cannot be cognitively open to free will otherwise the being is not free.
   Again, this only follows if you are inferring an outside agent controlling God. Are you?
4. Creation a person with free will is logically impossible.
   Not proven.

I’ve said this to you before but it bears repeating: As soon as you say “God can’t…” you’ve got the entirely wrong idea about God.

 

[Bahman]

I think you need to edit your signature. It isn’t consistent with your “argument.”’

Why? To me they are on right place

 

[Bahman]

In group A, you break down at point 3. We cannot cognitively know the outcome of a choice. We can make assumptions about the outcome of a choice, but we cannot know them. Also, point four is a non-sequitur form point three. Even if we -could- know the outcomes, they are not derived by a function, but rather though a successive series of choices, each with at least two potential outcomes (per your point one). which draws from it lacks a solid foundation. Ergo, your conclusion in point B, which relies on your conclusion from point A plus a non-sequitur, is not substantiated by anything you’ve said.

Also, you might want to explain what you mean by “cognitively open to free will.” The way you put it is very vague, and open to different understandings. When you’re trying to make a point, you want to be as specific as possible.

---

As to the question of the reality of free will in relation to an omnipotent creator; the problem is that you are only viewing free will in terms of a linear succession of causes and effects. To us, one choice leads to another, and another and another. We view time as a line which moves form beginning to end.

God, on the other hand, is outside of time. He does not see time in terms of a progression, but rather as an Eternal “Now.” What we see at choice A, leading to Choice B, … leading to choice n; God sees as choice AB…n; The sum result of our choices is just as present and real to Him as the individual choices themselves. This is a reality we simply cannot comprehend this fully precisely because we are limited to understanding time as a flow, which moves forwards. We cannot see the results of our free will-choices, but God can. This is no way impedes our ability to make those choices.

Think of it this way. A teacher has a student who never does the homework, never studies, and never writes a single answer on the tests. The teacher knows, beyond any doubt, that this student will not pass the class. The fact that the teacher knows the student is going to fail doesn’t mean that the teacher caused the student to fail though. The failure is still the result of their choices.

You are out of road my friend. It is not about what a group does
but what happen in the spot when decision is made. The idea of this thread is about: 1) how we can say that our will is free if God is connectivity open to it. 2) How soul can be creation of a agent so called God with ability to decide freely considering the point (1).

 

[ProdglArchitect]

You are out of road my friend. It is not about what a group does
but what happen in the spot when decision is made. The idea of this thread is about: 1) how we can say that our will is free if God is connectivity open to it. 2) How soul can be creation of a agent so called God with ability to decide freely considering the point (1).

Bahaman, this sentence… or… group of sentences… or… I’m not sure what this was. A sentence followed by a run-on… anyways, this is turning into a strawman / ad hominen, so I’ll just move one…

I don’t have the slightest idea what you’re trying to say here… could you try rephrasing it?

 

[Bahman]

As usual your arguments are convoluted and make no sense.

Lets work on it.

A) One cannot be cognitively open to free will:

1. Free will is the ability to choose one option among at lease two options
2. Assume that we are cognitively open to free will
3. This means that given the option one can precisely know the outcome
   I don’t agree with #3 unless you are talking actions in the minutest detail. I come to a fork in the road where I can go right or left. I choose right. The only outcome I can be sure of is the my next step will take me to the right. But looking further ahead I have no idea what will happen going down this road. I can only know what is happening now. You can say that each succeeding step is an exercise in free will in which I make a decision, but still I can’t predict any further than the next step.

The #3 makes complete sense. By (3) I simply mean that I understand/know what outcome a situation would be because I am open to my free will. In simple word, I know whatever is going inside my mind and I can find out what is my decision at given a situation.

1. This means that our action is like outcome of a function.
   If the function is the means by which I make a decision, which is a function of my thought processes, then OK.

Cool.

1. This means that our action are not free
   That doesn’t follow, unless you want to say that there is an outside agent controlling my actions. But you didn’t include that in this argument.

It does follow. Every thing in nature behave in a functional form giving (name removed by moderator)ut. They are not however free and that is the main difference between us and other being.

1. So by now we should agree that either free will is not real or we cannot be connectivity open to free will.
   Nope I don’t agree.

Please read the previous comment.

Your argument as I understand it boils down this: that because I use my mind to weigh options and consequences, come up with a plan, and then act on it, then I don’t have free will. On the contrary, that sounds exactly like free will.

No it doesn’t. Computer just simply perform some functional instructions that putt you in a difficult position if you accept that our action is the result of sole functioning.
seagal;13353651:

B) God cannot create a being with free will:

1. God can create being with free will
2. God needs to be cognitively open to free will in order to create a being with free will.
   I’ll go along with that.

Cool.

1. From A6) we learn that God cannot be cognitively open to free will otherwise the being is not free.
   Again, this only follows if you are inferring an outside agent controlling God. Are you?

1. Creation a person with free will is logically impossible.
   Not proven.

**
**

Please read the answer to 6

 

[NovusFidem]

Can you explain what do you mean by God being “connectivity open to” our will?

I think we are missing a step from your rationalization, or you are missing one of ours.

Is English your second language?

 

[Bahman]

Can you explain what do you mean by God being “connectivity open to” our will?

I think we are missing a step from your rationalization, or you are missing one of ours.

Is English your second language?

It means that God knows the outcome of a decision process given circumstances.

Yes, English is my second language.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

It means that God knows the outcome of a decision process given circumstances.

Yes, English is my second language.

God knows the outcome regardless of circumstances. God does not require any (name removed by moderator)ut to produce an output; as such, his process does not technically qualify as a function as you suggested earlier. A function receives data, runs it through a series of operations, and produces a result. God does not receive data, He knows everything so there is nothing that could be added to His knowledge. He also does not run anything through a series of operations to produce a result; the result already is within God’s scope of understanding.

 

[NovusFidem]

It means that God knows the outcome of a decision process given circumstances.

Knowing the outcome does not mean the decision doesn’t exist.

Let’s imagine I have an exam next week.

I know (to an extend) that if I don’t study I won’t do well at my exam. This knowledge, however, does not take away my option of not-studying. I know the **possible **outcome, but still I choose not to study and rely on “luck”.

This “luck” would be all that which I do NOT know, such as that the teacher might cancel the test, that the school might close for some reason on that day, or that my guessing might net me enough points to pass.

God is in a different situation. He knows all the outcomes of my decision. He knows that, even if I don’t study, I’ll pass due the teacher spilling coffee on my papers (and passing me just because). But God knowing all that still doesn’t take away MY choice; I am the one who chose to study or not.

As God lives outside of time, He can see beyond. He knows what is going to happen and the choices we are going to make. But just because He’s already seen the end, doesn’t mean He had a hand in our decisions.

I don’t know how to better explain. Do you know how to play Chess?

If you do, think like this. You and everyone else are the two players. God is a supercomputer watching our game. For every move you make, God calculates every single possible outcome.

As you move to capture a Bishop instead of a Pawn, for example, God already knew you’d make that move (He did calculate every possibility).

But the free will to make that move was still there. Although God knew you’d make that move, He didn’t prod you nor told you to move there. Had you made another move and, instead, captured the Pawn, God also saw that before you did. He knew, it was no surprise.

God also can see into the future, so He knows who’s going to win, in every possible scenario. So, if you end up losing, God knew that beforehand. If you win, God knew that too. If you tie? Yeah, God saw that eons ago.

But you are the one playing the game, not Him. So your choices are yours, even though the guy who put the game for you to play already knows the outcome.

Yes, English is my second language.

That might complicate things a bit, so please have patience with us. If we don’t understand at first we might get irritated. It happens.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Knowing the outcome does not mean the decision doesn’t exist.

Let’s imagine I have an exam next week.

I know (to an extend) that if I don’t study I won’t do well at my exam. This knowledge, however, does not take away my option of not-studying. I know the **possible **outcome, but still I choose not to study and rely on “luck”.

This “luck” would be all that which I do NOT know, such as that the teacher might cancel the test, that the school might close for some reason on that day, or that my guessing might net me enough points to pass.

God is in a different situation. He knows all the outcomes of my decision. He knows that, even if I don’t study, I’ll pass due the teacher spilling coffee on my papers (and passing me just because). But God knowing all that still doesn’t take away MY choice; I am the one who chose to study or not.

As God lives outside of time, He can see beyond. He knows what is going to happen and the choices we are going to make. But just because He’s already seen the end, doesn’t mean He had a hand in our decisions.

I don’t know how to better explain. Do you know how to play Chess?

If you do, think like this. You and everyone else are the two players. God is a supercomputer watching our game. For every move you make, God calculates every single possible outcome.

As you move to capture a Bishop instead of a Pawn, for example, God already knew you’d make that move (He did calculate every possibility).

But the free will to make that move was still there. Although God knew you’d make that move, He didn’t prod you nor told you to move there. Had you made another move and, instead, captured the Pawn, God also saw that before you did. He knew, it was no surprise.

God also can see into the future, so He knows who’s going to win, in every possible scenario. So, if you end up losing, God knew that beforehand. If you win, God knew that too. If you tie? Yeah, God saw that eons ago.

But you are the one playing the game, not Him. So your choices are yours, even though the guy who put the game for you to play already knows the outcome.

That might complicate things a bit, so please have patience with us. If we don’t understand at first we might get irritated. It happens.

I’d only make one slight adjustment to this. God doesn’t “see into the future.” Seeing into the future implies that there is something happening beyond God’s current state (the future.) To God, there is no Future, and no Past; only and eternal Now. God does not “see into the future” because from His perspective outside of town, the past, present and future have already happened, are in the process of happening, and will happen, at at once.

I know what you were trying to say, but I find that using phrases like “sees into the future” tends to confuse people when talking about God’s omnipotence.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I’d only make one slight adjustment to this. God doesn’t “see into the future.” Seeing into the future implies that there is something happening beyond God’s current state (the future.) To God, there is no Future, and no Past; only and eternal Now. God does not “see into the future” because from His perspective outside of town, the past, present and future have already happened, are in the process of happening, and will happen, at at once.

I know what you were trying to say, but I find that using phrases like “sees into the future” tends to confuse people when talking about God’s omnipotence.

Wow… typos… Here’s an edited version. Mods, if you see this, please delete my previous post.

I’d only make one slight adjustment to this. God doesn’t “see into the future.” Seeing into the future implies that the future is happening beyond God’s immediate knowledge. To God, there is no future, and no past; only an eternal now. God does not “see into the future,” because from His perspective outside of time the past, present and future have already happened, are in the process of happening, and will happen, at at once.

I know what you were trying to say, but I find that phrases like “sees into the future,” tend to confuse people when talking about God’s omnipotence.

 

[NovusFidem]

Wow… typos… Here’s an edited version. Mods, if you see this, please delete my previous post.

I’d only make one slight adjustment to this. God doesn’t “see into the future.” Seeing into the future implies that the future is happening beyond God’s immediate knowledge. To God, there is no future, and no past; only an eternal now. God does not “see into the future,” because from His perspective outside of time the past, present and future have already happened, are in the process of happening, and will happen, at at once.

I know what you were trying to say, but I find that phrases like “sees into the future,” tend to confuse people when talking about God’s omnipotence.

The “sees into the future” was pertaining to the “Computer God” in the example given, and not our actual “God”. Our God simply is and knows.

 

[Bahman]

God knows the outcome regardless of circumstances. God does not require any (name removed by moderator)ut to produce an output; as such, his process does not technically qualify as a function as you suggested earlier. A function receives data, runs it through a series of operations, and produces a result. God does not receive data, He knows everything so there is nothing that could be added to His knowledge. He also does not run anything through a series of operations to produce a result; the result already is within God’s scope of understanding.

So you claim that God knows a person decision once options are realized without addressing how such of knowledge is possible. That is only a claim without any support. One possibility is to know the outcome knowing circumstance. This is weak knowledge with the price that our mental acts like function. The other possibility is strong knowledge so called foreknowledge but that is claim also and it suffers from its own problems one of is that such a God cannot sustain the creation if he is in state of timeless. It is very simple to understand the problem: Creation changes at the moment so called now which requires the knowledge of current time which is changing in mind of God which is logically impossible since it requires changes in mind of God.

 

[Bahman]

Wow… typos… Here’s an edited version. Mods, if you see this, please delete my previous post.

I’d only make one slight adjustment to this. God doesn’t “see into the future.” Seeing into the future implies that the future is happening beyond God’s immediate knowledge. To God, there is no future, and no past; only an eternal now. God does not “see into the future,” because from His perspective outside of time the past, present and future have already happened, are in the process of happening, and will happen, at at once.

I know what you were trying to say, but I find that phrases like “sees into the future,” tend to confuse people when talking about God’s omnipotence.

I do understand what you are saying. But knowing all possible outcomes knowing options is not knowledge since doesn’t provide any knowledge about future.

 

[rinnie]

It means that God knows the outcome of a decision process given circumstances.

Yes, English is my second language.

So, knowing does not change the free will given. Just because God knows the outcome, in no way takes away the free will of that person.

 

[rinnie]

So you claim that God knows a person decision once options are realized without addressing how such of knowledge is possible. That is only a claim without any support. One possibility is to know the outcome knowing circumstance. This is weak knowledge with the price that our mental acts like function. The other possibility is strong knowledge so called foreknowledge but that is claim also and it suffers from its own problems one of is that such a God cannot sustain the creation if he is in state of timeless. It is very simple to understand the problem: Creation changes at the moment so called now which requires the knowledge of current time which is changing in mind of God which is logically impossible since it requires changes in mind of God.

Sure we can, God knows everything. You seem to try to explain God on human understanding. When you realize that human cannot understand the Divine, you will them come to the conclusions you keep looking for. Results being this: You cannot understand the Divine on human understanding no matter how hard you try.

 

[NovusFidem]

So you claim that God knows a person decision once options are realized without addressing how such of knowledge is possible. That is only a claim without any support.

He was addressing my examples, in which I tried to simplify how God sees our reality - he understood what I meant to say, and he was right that it could be confusing. Your understanding of God is such a simplified view - you cannot yet grasp the concept of what “eternal” means.

I mean, I think no one can know for certain what eternity means, but some of us are at peace knowing it is beyond our **current **capacity to understand things.

How God’s knowledge of what is to come is possible? The explanation has already been given: God lives outside time and space. He has existed “before” Creation. (and this “before” I use as a figure of speech, as time didn’t exist “before” creation)

“Whatever” God is, is beyond our complete understanding. How it works? How is it sustained? What is God made of, if not matter? That is all beyond us, for now.

One possibility is to know the outcome knowing circumstance. This is weak knowledge with the price that our mental acts like function. The other possibility is strong knowledge so called foreknowledge but that is claim also and it suffers from its own problems one of is that such a God cannot sustain the creation if he is in state of timeless. It is very simple to understand the problem: Creation changes at the moment so called now which requires the knowledge of current time which is changing in mind of God which is logically impossible since it requires changes in mind of God.

This point in your post:

“God cannot sustain the creation if he is in state of timeless”

This point shows why you have difficulty in understanding the concept of a timeless God.

Precisely because He is beyond time (timeless) is that He can maintain a timed existence. He created time for us, for everything that was created, and not for Himself. He doesn’t need time to exist, He just “is”.

To use a silly analogy, imagine that God = humans and creation = car.

We created gas to give “life” to cars. Cars can’t function without gas , but we ourselves don’t need gas to exist.

Likewise:

God created time to give existence to creation. Creation can’t exist outside of time*, but God himself doesn’t need time to exist.

*(for now and as far as I know)