Can i get another catholic's feedback on FB post?

[asenn]

this is my response to an atheist vs. Christian discussion regarding a meme that shows “horrific” atheistic governments suggesting world without religion would be BAD.
“”"
“If God exists, then we clearly have a sound foundation for objective moral values and moral duties. But if God does not exist, that is, if atheism is true, then there is no basis for the affirmation of objective moral values; and there is no ground for objective moral duties because there is no moral lawgiver…” and so a question might be considered as to whether atheism can provide a foundation for objective moral values and duties? I think this meme is suggesting it cannot. But then there is science, ethics, and moral relativism. is moral relativism a good thing? I personally don’t think so. I don’t see how universal peace could ever be accomplished in this manner. I believe that religions can coexist peacefully and yet I still subscribe to Universal Truth. With God, all things are possible. On the individual scale I think one should strive to be virtuous. “an habitual and firm disposition to do the good. virtue allows the person not only to perform good acts, but to give the best of one’s self. The virtuous person tends toward the good with all his sensory and spiritual powers; one pursues the good and chooses it in concrete actions.” I believe ANYBODY can be virtuous. But as a Christian, I believe in objective virtues defined by my religion. I believe each of us has the innate calling and desire, sometimes muddled, to be good and virtuous. I am willing to die for my country for the “freedom of religion.” But I would much rather die for the theocracy of “Vatican City.” Peace y’all.

 

[ahs]

this is my response to an atheist vs. Christian discussion regarding a meme that shows “horrific” atheistic governments suggesting world without religion would be BAD.
“”"
“If God exists, then we clearly have a sound foundation for objective moral values and moral duties. But if God does not exist, that is, if atheism is true, then there is no basis for the affirmation of objective moral values; and there is no ground for objective moral duties because there is no moral lawgiver…” and so a question might be considered as to whether atheism can provide a foundation for objective moral values and duties? I think this meme is suggesting it cannot. But then there is science, ethics, and moral relativism. is moral relativism a good thing? I personally don’t think so. I don’t see how universal peace could ever be accomplished in this manner. I believe that religions can coexist peacefully and yet I still subscribe to Universal Truth. With God, all things are possible. On the individual scale I think one should strive to be virtuous. “an habitual and firm disposition to do the good. virtue allows the person not only to perform good acts, but to give the best of one’s self. The virtuous person tends toward the good with all his sensory and spiritual powers; one pursues the good and chooses it in concrete actions.” I believe ANYBODY can be virtuous. But as a Christian, I believe in objective virtues defined by my religion. I believe each of us has the innate calling and desire, sometimes muddled, to be good and virtuous. I am willing to die for my country for the “freedom of religion.” But I would much rather die for the theocracy of “Vatican City.” Peace y’all.

I like it. I debated the same meme (all the atheist dictators pictured who had done hoorible acts of mass murder, etc…). The point isn’t that atheists are bad and atheism causes people to do these things…but that without God, there is not objective basis to denounce what these particular men had done as being “awful” or even “bad”. One thing I asked of a friend (who is agnostic) was to show me the atheistic doctrine that condemns massacres, and todefine “awful/horrible” from an atheist-materialist paradigm.

I saw where other people, on another FB page about the same meme, wrote, “The question is what’s exactly “bad” about mass genocide from an atheistic standpoint when atheism has no set doctrines? I mean at least when a Christian dictator, say, kills a bunch of people, we can clearly see he is being hypocritical because the Christian religion contains doctrines like “love your enemies”.”
“The point here isn’t that atheism causes war or violence. The point is that it’s a lie to believe that the world would be peaceful without religion.”

The person I was debating said tried to take it to evoltionary biology, consequentialism (which is not atheism), etc… For example, as evidence that an atheistiuc view can condemn such evils, he stated, “Evolutionary biology requires mutually assured preservation of society to one degree or another or the species will cease to exist.”

To which I responded, “It also calls for survival of the fittest, which does not exclude the killing off of the weaker of a species.”

 

[asenn]

thank you for the reply ahs! good insights too. the discussion is going well on FB. btw, i checked out your blog…very cool!

 

[Oreoracle]

How is Christian morality objective? In particular, how does one prove God is good without implicitly assuming it?

I ask because many Christians argue something like this:

Christian: “Christian morality is objective because it’s based on God.”

Non-Christian: “Why does that matter?”

Christian: “Because God is the source of goodness.”

Non-Christian: “How so?”

Christian: “Because he is purely good.”

Non-Christian: “How do you know that?”

Depending on the Christian’s background, they will then either say you’re being difficult or, if they’re of a more philosophical bent, then they’ll point out that God is good because he’s omnibenevolent. Why is he omnibenevolent? Well, because that’s just part of the definition of “God”. At this point it becomes clear that Christian morality is objective because it was simply defined to be objective from the outset; it was never actually demonstrated to be any more well-founded than any other ideology.

But perhaps your take on it isn’t so easy to pick apart, so why do you think Christian morality is objective?

 

[ahs]

How is Christian morality objective?

Is that the position taken? I re-read the OP and that’s not the argument I’m seeing. Maybe I missed something?

 

[Oreoracle]

Is that the position taken? I re-read the OP and that’s not the argument I’m seeing. Maybe I missed something?

It’s actually in the first line of asenn’s quote (which was his/her response to the meme) as seen below:

“If God exists, then we clearly have a sound foundation for **objective moral values **and moral duties.