Can ontological brute facts exist?

[ReapReason]

Can ontological brute facts exist?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

QUESTION: If brute facts could exist, doesn’t that lend weight to the atheist claim that the Earth is merely a “brute fact” that needs no explanation? Wouldn’t that then be theoretically possible? This would mean all ontological arguments would fail, and then we’re back to Aquinas’s Five Ways right?

 

[ReapReason]

QUESTION: If brute facts could exist, doesn’t that lend weight to the atheist claim that the Earth is merely a “brute fact” that needs no explanation? Wouldn’t that then be theoretically possible? This would mean all ontological arguments would fail, and then we’re back to Aquinas’s Five Ways right?

By ontological brute fact I mean a being that is objectively inexplicable. It has no rational reason for its existence, and yet it exists regardless without reference to anything else or even its own nature.

I am not arguing that such a thing can exist. I don’t think it can. Rather, I am asking is it possible for such a thing to exist and if so what are peoples reasons for thinking that such is possible.

To put it another way, must all existing things have a rational explanation for their existence.

As for the five ways, if you admit the possibility that physical reality is a brute fact, then arguments for God become useless conjecture.

An atheist need only prove that it is possible.

 

[blessedrosary]

What is a brute fact? (rather, what do you mean by brute fact?)

 

[danserr]

By ontological brute fact I mean a being that is objectively inexplicable. It has no rational reason for its existence, and yet it exists regardless without reference to anything else or even its own nature.

I am not arguing that such a thing can exist. I don’t think it can. Rather, I am asking is it possible for such a thing to exist and if so what are peoples reasons for thinking that such is possible.

To put it another way, must all existing things have a rational explanation for their existence.

As for the five ways, if you admit the possibility that physical reality is a brute fact, then arguments for God become useless conjecture.

An atheist need only prove that it is possible.

To be precise, you might have to distinguish between a brute fact and a brute object.
A “fact” is just a true proposition, but even if a person admitted that a brute fact in this sense could exist, it would not necessarily follow that a brute being or object could exist.

Second, even if it were possible that the universe were a brute fact (and like you, I doubt that it is), that would not suffice to make arguments for God useless. At most it might make certain arguments for God weak, but there would still be other arguments independent of this.

 

[Qoeleth]

To be precise, you might have to distinguish between a brute fact and a brute object.
A “fact” is just a true proposition, but even if a person admitted that a brute fact in this sense could exist, it would not necessarily follow that a brute being or object could exist.

Second, even if it were possible that the universe were a brute fact (and like you, I doubt that it is), that would not suffice to make arguments for God useless. At most it might make certain arguments for God weak, but there would still be other arguments independent of this.

I agree. A fact is a “proposition”- it is made (factus). Without observers and commentators, there would be no facts at all. So, brute fact do not exist.

It comes down to our treatment. If a person chooses to label the universe a “brute object”, that is simply an expression of choice about the philosophical treatment they are going to give it.

It is like the philosophy, “Whatever happens, happens.” It is a kind of non-philosophy.

 

[Sair]

I agree. A fact is a “proposition”- it is made (factus). Without observers and commentators, there would be no facts at all. So, brute fact do not exist.

It comes down to our treatment. If a person chooses to label the universe a “brute object”, that is simply an expression of choice about the philosophical treatment they are going to give it.

It is like the philosophy, “Whatever happens, happens.” It is a kind of non-philosophy.

But by the same token, the treatment of god as a brute object - that which needs no explanation for its existence - could be said to render most religions as non-theologies, no?

 

[danserr]

But by the same token, the treatment of god as a brute object - that which needs no explanation for its existence - could be said to render most religions as non-theologies, no?

I’m not sure that it would even for others religions, but typically Christian philosophers and theologians do not see God as a brute objection without explanation, but a necessary being whose explanation lies in the necessity of his own nature.

 

[JDaniel]

Can ontological brute facts exist?

RR:

I don’t think so. It is, I believe, our expression for an unexpected occurrence. In this sense, it is very much like the word, “emergent.” I think they mean the same things, except one is useful in some contexts while the other is useful in other contexts - but, strictly for argumentative purposes.

Remember, God causes everything except sin. Everything but sin. And, the world and universe are intelligible. It is intelligible even if there is no one to understand it. It is (each and all) a “to be understood” as Bernard Lonergan would say.

Another poster, above, mentioned that “brute fact” helps the non-theist “explain away God.” This is exactly what it does. It brings in words, or word-combinations, that are undefined, and perhaps undefinable. E.g., the universe came to be is simply a ‘brute fact’. In two words, the entirety of theistic cosmogony is wiped away. No explanations; no rationale; no argument.

Those are two (actually three) words that I despise. They’re not even postulational. Why? Because a ‘brute fact’ is nothing more than a “to be understood/explained.” It is exactly the same with ‘emergent’. They are signs of a frightened man’s unwillingness to defend the indefensible.

God permeates everything. In so doing, he controls everything. He hands us this “soul” and allows it alone to participate in utter freedom. Because he permeates everything, he is coterminous with everything. Because he is conterminous with everything, he moves everything. That is what St. Thomas’ Five Ways mean and signify. God is the stuff between the protons and neutrons of an atom. He is the stuff that electrons inhabit. He is the stuff between quarks.

Prime Mover: God is actually doing the moving, although we “think” we are.
First Cause: God is doing the causing (moving), although we “think” we are.
Necessary Cause: God permeates and is coterminous with everything thereby sustaining everything he wishes to sustain.
The Epitome of “Being”: God is Pure Being and the cause of all being - in all of its senses
Purpose: All (or, at least, almost all) shall return to him, without any lack of knowledge or knowability that might make us anxious or unhappy.

My $.02.

BTW: great opening post!

God bless,
jd

 

[tteddy619]

The only brute fact that exists in the universe is that which is not contrary to fact. Material consequences are pointless. It is very abstract thinking but try to imagine, of course strictly philosophically, that the only “thing” which does not require “explanation” or reason is reason itself. No higher reason above reason can exist. Reason is reason. People either get this or dont…or take a long time to grasp what it means. Trying to dissect reason is done in what manner? In reason. Can the existence of the Earth be just a brute fact? Its there. To an atheist its there and we’re on it etc. But now replace the Earth with Reason itself. You cannot say the concept of reason exists so we can figure out the universe. You cant say it exists because its just their because this would mean reason is not reasonable and has no reason! But, by this very fact, in its own contradiction, it can only be reconciled to say that reason in itself is brute because it cannot be explained without itself. Thus, reason comes from a first mover-God. Brute fact concepts lead to the supernatural.

Point: Reason is metaphysical. It is a function and gift of the soul. That leads into a different story but you get the point I hope.

 

[empther]

To put it another way, must all existing things have a rational explanation for their existence.

It is only necessary to explain how anything in general can exist. The answer, of course, is God.

An atheist need only prove that it is possible.

An atheist can’t prove anything since he denies the EternalExistencEnabler.

 

[StrawberryJam]

The only brute fact that exists in the universe is that which is not contrary to fact. Material consequences are pointless. It is very abstract thinking but try to imagine, of course strictly philosophically, that the only “thing” which does not require “explanation” or reason is reason itself. No higher reason above reason can exist. Reason is reason. People either get this or dont…or take a long time to grasp what it means. Trying to dissect reason is done in what manner? In reason. Can the existence of the Earth be just a brute fact? Its there. To an atheist its there and we’re on it etc. But now replace the Earth with Reason itself. You cannot say the concept of reason exists so we can figure out the universe. You cant say it exists because its just their because this would mean reason is not reasonable and has no reason! But, by this very fact, in its own contradiction, it can only be reconciled to say that reason in itself is brute because it cannot be explained without itself. Thus, reason comes from a first mover-God. Brute fact concepts lead to the supernatural.
Point: Reason is metaphysical. It is a function and gift of the soul. That leads into a different story but you get the point I hope.

Your post is very disjointed. We are to replace the Earth with Reason itself and then assume later this a a fact that needs to be reconciled by a first mover-God.

 

[tteddy619]

I salute your attention and scrutiny! It is definitely disjointed but for sake of brevity. Something that exists for the sole purpose of existing cannot be explained (reasoned). The only way to explain something is through reason. Reason is above nature and nature is the subject of reason. If one says that since reason exists simply because it does but in a true BRUTE form, that is, it needs no reason, then this statement implies that the subjects of reason need no reasoning.[critical thinking needed on this statement]

Reason is totally recursive in its own nature and is its own reason for existing. This is in effect brute. For some having difficulty with the issue of brute fact- it is very easy to lose the true meaning of this abstract idea.

The only thing that is purely brute, just simply there, is anything which functions for truth. This is reason. Reason is a continuum of truth. I am indeed trying to cheat by going from statement B to implication F but just trying to keep the post brief. It would otherwise take quite a while of writing to fully expound.

Anything in nature can be reasoned. Now, reason manifests itself in nature, so can it be subjective to itself? Well, only through reason. Lets do it… Reason exists in nature therefor it can be explained with reason. See? It is in and of itself its own explanation. Recursive in its nature. It just becomes an idea that simply exists. It begets itself.

A miracle is declared a miracle by use of reason. If the supernatural is explained by something- which we call reason- then reason is above nature. Anything above nature, this- universe, is supernatural.

To be fair I admit it seems Im jumping to conclusions but it would take a few chapters of writing through proofs, etc. to fully get through. There is also proof to show why reason is not natural although it manifests itself in nature. I have touched on it but indeed only skimming the surface of it all.

Spiritually speaking, and this is just monologue, God created reason as a gift to seek truth and He that is Truth is all reason. Reason comes from eternity who is God. Our very souls come from God the creator who is eternal and this Almighty Eternal gives us authority over the earth and beasts. The ability to know truth. A very powerful thing.

 

[Qoeleth]

I salute your attention and scrutiny! It is definitely disjointed but for sake of brevity. Something that exists for the sole purpose of existing cannot be explained (reasoned). The only way to explain something is through reason. Reason is above nature and nature is the subject of reason. If one says that since reason exists simply because it does but in a true BRUTE form, that is, it needs no reason, then this statement implies that the subjects of reason need no reasoning.[critical thinking needed on this statement]

Reason is totally recursive in its own nature and is its own reason for existing. This is in effect brute. For some having difficulty with the issue of brute fact- it is very easy to lose the true meaning of this abstract idea.

The only thing that is purely brute, just simply there, is anything which functions for truth. This is reason. Reason is a continuum of truth. I am indeed trying to cheat by going from statement B to implication F but just trying to keep the post brief. It would otherwise take quite a while of writing to fully expound.

Anything in nature can be reasoned. Now, reason manifests itself in nature, so can it be subjective to itself? Well, only through reason. Lets do it… Reason exists in nature therefor it can be explained with reason. See? It is in and of itself its own explanation. Recursive in its nature. It just becomes an idea that simply exists. It begets itself.

A miracle is declared a miracle by use of reason. If the supernatural is explained by something- which we call reason- then reason is above nature. Anything above nature, this- universe, is supernatural.

To be fair I admit it seems Im jumping to conclusions but it would take a few chapters of writing through proofs, etc. to fully get through. There is also proof to show why reason is not natural although it manifests itself in nature. I have touched on it but indeed only skimming the surface of it all.

Spiritually speaking, and this is just monologue, God created reason as a gift to seek truth and He that is Truth is all reason. Reason comes from eternity who is God. Our very souls come from God the creator who is eternal and this Almighty Eternal gives us authority over the earth and beasts. The ability to know truth. A very powerful thing.

Why should ‘reason’ be treated as a brute fact. One can attempt to find the basis of reason. The basis of reason can (and has) been examined.

I suggest you ‘metaphysicalizing’ reason without due basis. It is, after all, only a particular grammar or system. Why is it not part of nature? And truth is simply a property which, under certain agreed circumstances, is ascribed to certain propositions.

Both reason and truth exist within the game of human language. To attribute to them transcendence seems a bit idolatrous.

 

[tteddy619]

This really isnt philosophy. Its catechism. The whole discussion is.

Lets say:

1.   Reason is not brute but exists in nature.  It can be reasoned in nature.  The nature OF reason cannot be attributed to the supernatural.

2.   God created the universe because he loves mankind

3.   Reason exists in the universe and was therefore created by God

4.   The will of God is not bound by reason

5.   Statement 4 makes statement 2 false.

6.   Statement 2 is truth

7.   Statement 3 is fact

8.   Statement 1 must therefore be false

Thats quick and dirty. Reason is supernatural and exists in nature because it just does. By the will of God in his plan of creation. Think very, very fundamentally. Why send down His only begotten son Jesus who is God? That’s how God wanted it. However, of course there was reason, but we’re talking about reason itself. If God has reason albeit not bound by it, it is still of God. Plain and simple.

I have not focused too much on the words here…focus on the idea.

I perhaps see some Kant coming out here - I understand what you are trying to convey but grammatical parlor tricks aren’t being used here. True, much of philosophy’s frictions come from the lack of delineating ideas with and from words but we can use an example of what love is. God is pure love which also transcends. Love is truth. Anything which is truth (which is also Christ) is love. I am in a certain mindset here. The soul, yours and mine, have certain attributes. Does not our body and soul come from God? The soul gives life to the body. It is what gives us intellect and conscience.

Reason in and of itself is what rationality is. It is through grace and the Holy Spirit which gives us the ability to reason properly. So far as its bruteness is concerned, think of how Christ used reasoning to tell the scribes, after they had accused him of working for the Devil, how a house which is against itself would never last. On the surface, Christ is just reasoning with them. “Well guys, he’s got a point doesn’t he?” Of course, because its truth. Now looking deeper into this, Christ the Incarnation is reasoning with them. When Christ who is Divine, knew their hearts, he then used reason- which works for truth (which is to say works for Christ) is not something natural. Why? Because it “functions”, “works for”, “presents”, and is truth. The use of reason is given to us so that we can know the truth. Even down to 1+1, we are given this gift of reasoning- and it is just there. Truths are built in to us, it is just there. It comes from God wired into our minds and soul. When the inferior body (the mind) is mature enough to understand, our superior soul is in the driver’s seat. Some Men however, side-seat drive.

Love, grace, reason, humility, charity, faith, understanding, courage, fortitude, discipline, free will, etc. are all truths that come from God. Love can be explained in so many ways it ridiculous so in saying love I mean God’s will. That is love. That is truth and they all reason with each other because God is all true reasoning. The lower human levels of reasoning as most people take it is when Christ used parables so that the people would understand what he was saying. It “reasoned” with their mind. It made sense. The deeper part of the parables however was to present truths. When He spoke to Nicodemus He said, “How is it that a rabbi doesn’t understand what I am saying?” Nicodemus was using only human reasoning to interpret what Christ was saying. Human reasoning is natural but still COMES FROM the spirit. It’s evident of what troubled Nicodemus’ heart! Christ said, “The spirit is willing be the flesh is weak”. The flesh must be controlled by the soul through which God gives us His Graces. It is whats in the drivers seat.

Now if reason were just a part of nature ONLY and its basis for existing was because we are human and its part of the mind to be able to think and make decisions, well isn’t that the same to say that the free will is just part of nature? Both are of the mind and that’s it- in that case. They would just be there in nature. Even an animal can choose to go here or there BASED on how many Lions are in the area. Even to the animals a smallest part of God’s transcendence is there but we have dominion over them. St. Thomas touches on this a bit. Anything which was created including humans comes from God. Anything in which something is able to come to the conclusion of love…truth… is given by God. God did not move to create love- He Was, Is, and Will be love. The fallen human can use reason improperly though. Does a heretic use reason properly? No, which is why the Holy Father has been given authority over man so that our fallen nature does not corrupt truth. That is the function of the Church. To be a non movable rock of truth. Incorruptible by man using the gifts of God wickedly. This has everything to do with “brute facts” . Truth is truth and it is Jesus Christ as the body of the true church.

You asked why is it not part of nature. Am I to answer everything in nature is of God? No. I am not saying God can be found on your bathroom floor- or whatever it is the protestants say. We ourselves were created in his image and likeness but our bodies are in fact temples of the Holy Spirit which is what enables us to reason. Even faith can manifest itself in the natural world. In fact it must for salvation. See all of this works together and none of it is off on a tangent per se as to the point of brute fact.

Spiritual welfare is the primary concern of our lives. So when we pray to have better reasoning, would God be concerned with reasoning if it were truly just there because of nature putting it there? Absolutely not. Doesnt even make sense. But to pray for help to reason against my own human reasoning from personal desires, God will send more graces than you will know what to do with. The mind and soul work together with the soul as chief and commander because that is where the graces flow through. The body is the vessel for the supernatural soul to live in the natural world.

Lucifer was the most intelligent angel. Still is. He is so smart he can pretty much predict the future. Angles cannot predict the future but he is practically a million steps ahead of how a human will react. Did Lucifer not reason in his pride? What reason did he have to be proud? WHY did he fall.? Through the CHOICE he made by his REASONING. Reasoning was given to him. And the devil aint no natural being. He lied to himself, or rather, did not have reason with truth. He became against truth and did not accept Gods graces. Angels are superior in intelligence (and reasoning) to humans- just as we are over animals. Grace from God does not mean we become more like Him.

Does God take away free will and reason from the soul after entering heaven? No. Why? What’s the reason? Because it’s a gift he freely gives. Well if when we are in the Beatific Vision no one would ever choose to turn away from Him so what’s the point of having it in heaven? Ah, the reason is that to have free will and reason while being in the presence of God for eternity glorifies Him all the more. Mary had free will but did not sin. People say well she couldn’t have because she had no original sin. Yes…BUT… she also willed not to sin. This is very important. She willed to bear Christ and suffer with him. Do you see it?

The only reason for reason existing is to love God. And He is all reason. This means He that is reason just is. Its transcendence in nature come from the supernatural.
Not in the letters of the word reason, but in the life of the word and of its very idea.
TRUE Reason IS loving God. You can replace the word with anything that is from God and it’s the same thing.

Ask your guardian angel, “What are the only ontological brute facts?” and he might reply, “I am looking at Him”.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I’d rather not pick your rather long worded post apart to ask you to examine your position.
Your position is right out of the playbook as you admit rather honestly, so it seems to be the end of discussion.