Can Protestants even judge heresy?

[CopticChristian]

No, but it is fair to say that discerning where the authority is is far more difficult. I see the earthly authority of my communion in scripture, the confessions, and the synod. So, I don;t see myself without an authority. I look to the confessions and my synod’s teaching role in this regard. I certainly don’t look to myself.

All that said, I would like to be able, yes pray for it to happen, that the authority the Lord handed to his apostles was once again in unity. I could submit myself, even abondon my current communion, were that to happen. So, without intending to sound harsh, the calls of some to authority, when even that authority is dvided, seems at times hollow.
I know, it sounds confusing. It is.

Jon

Sometimes confusion causes the mind to think and wonder. Better this than to have certainty in uncertainty or to be have sincerity in something that may not be sincerely correct.

 

[BrianH]

And a refusal to obey authority has always eaten at the core of humanity. Adam & Eve? How about Satan and his fellow fallen angels? Pride is one the reasons to disobey authority.

Oh I am sure there are people with lots of pride. But those people do not usually see it in themselves. Of course it is hard to be objective enough or read people’s true intentions. At least I find it difficult…

 

[BrianH]

Mormons don’t smoke, drink, have great community outreaches and have stron family values. They act great.

So I hear. I don’t really know any Mormons so I cannot say…

 

[CopticChristian]

So I hear. I don’t really know any Mormons so I cannot say…

I had Mormon neighbors years ago. They were very nice people. I had a Mormon roommate when I went on a Medical Mission with Operation Smile. He was very nice. We discussed the book of Mormon. He never asked me to read it or talked about it. I asked questions. He answered. He never evangelized me. I had a Mormon employee that needed my help and I never heard boo from her. A Mormon colleague where I now live has been nothing but charitable to me when I needed help. He has never spoken of anything about Mormonism. A business associate that is Mormon never discusses his beliefs. I have asked questions and he answers. I have never been invited by these people to do anything. I can say.

 

[BrianH]

I think people use words like pride, intellectually honest and other catch phrases to bash those who hold different views in as nice a manner as possible. People know that calling someone an idiot is generally frowned upon. So they couch their language.
I prefer to assume good intentions. People disagree because based upon their presuppositions they come to different conclusions. But people like to feel right…its fun…Anyway thats how I see this IMO

 

[CopticChristian]

I think people use words like pride, intellectually honest and other catch phrases to bash those who hold different views in as nice a manner as possible. People know that calling someone an idiot is generally frowned upon. So they couch their language.
I prefer to assume good intentions. People disagree because based upon their presuppositions they come to different conclusions. **But people like to feel right…its fun…Anyway thats how I see this **IMO

I don’t like to feel right. I like to believe that what I believe is correct and in tune and in harmony with all known facts, all that is known about anything.

Cows don’t eat corn. I agree with those that believe that cows should eat grass and that grass fed beef is as they call it Organic. However if you think about it the twisted notion of corn fed beef as the norm causes the norm to be called Organic. Organic is the natural order. The humurous thing is that I eat very little meat.

I like the natural order even if it goes against the grain. I am not trying to please anyone, feel good about being right or wrong, I just want to have internal harmony that is in harmony with the world as I know it. If you don’t think I am right it causes me no feelings one way or the other.

I disagree with people when I find that they present things that are not agreeable and I usually dissent with my opinion and my thoughts. Take them or leave them. Only you can discern what is right for you. I have no feelings about being correct.

 

[ignatius777]

Can protestants even judge heresy when there is no standard of doctrine or belief? Sometimes, even within one denomination? Pointing to the Bible would be their response I’m sure, but the Bible requires interpretation and we’ve seen that instead of leading a standard of belief it actually does the opposite?

With this in mind how can a protestant ever judge what is heretical and what is not? They simply have no standard of comparison.

The problem protestants run up against is that there are 1000s of non catholic demoninations yet they claim that “truth” can be found only in the bible yet the “truth” seems sufficiently different that 1000s of different versions of this “truth” exist.

 

[JustaServant]

No, but it is fair to say that discerning where the authority is is far more difficult. I see the earthly authority of my communion in scripture, the confessions, and the synod. So, I don;t see myself without an authority. I look to the confessions and my synod’s teaching role in this regard. I certainly don’t look to myself.

All that said, I would like to be able, yes pray for it to happen, that the authority the Lord handed to his apostles was once again in unity. I could submit myself, even abondon my current communion, were that to happen. So, without intending to sound harsh, the calls of some to authority, when even that authority is dvided, seems at times hollow.
I know, it sounds confusing. It is.

Jon

Jon, what has to be agreed upon for all Christians to accept authority?
For example, when I go to work for a company I don’t choose who the boss is, he’s already there and I have to dance to his tune.
Is it my acceptence of that authority that makes it legitamate?
Or is it beyond what I believe or think about that authority? The fact that they are in authority enough for me to trust their judgement?
Can I trust them enough to know what heresy is?
I hope that makes sense. I’m home with a cold and I might be typing stoned on medicine.

 

[CopticChristian]

The problem protestants run up against is that there are 1000s of non catholic demoninations yet they claim that “truth” can be found only in the bible yet the “truth” seems sufficiently different that 1000s of different versions of this “truth” exist.

I am frosted that you are a regular member with less than 2000 posts and I am a junior member approaching 2000 posts. What gives? Since I am only a junior member allow me to suggest something.

I often see this notion of 1000’s and numerous denominations. It usually causes many to claim nonsense and that there are fewer than that, etc. I see the situation as thought. All thoughts transmit time…Protestant thought is not one thing…there are streams of thought that spawn other streams of thought…I have found it safe to say…

Anglican thought that gave rise to Methodist thought that gave rise to the holiness movement that gave rise to Pentacostal, AOG, church of Nazarene and the like…all primarily Wesleyan…

Then there is Lutheran thought that spawns the divisions within Lutheran thought, Baptist thought with division, Reformed/Calvinist thought…

and then there is the mixing of the thoughts as you see in ministries like Promise Keepers, Harvest Crusade…suggesting a mix of Calvinism and Arminianism…

and then there is mixing of the eschatologies

and the mixing and matching and permutations creates the ecclesial communities with mixed thoughts…then of course Calvinism creeps in everywhere as in the Baptist as the Doctrine of Grace…and so it goes

So the suggestion is to not dilineate numbers because there are those that take offense to the numbers and I have yet to see anyone object to “permutation of thought” originating from the original streams…

Anglican
Lutheran
Calvin
Methodist
Baptist
AnaBaptist

Take the idea or leave it, it was only a suggestion.

 

[Contarini]

Precious metals are found in ore and are mixed with impurities. When they get refined we get the pure substance. This is my understanding of purity. I cannot relate to your definition of purity as it is peculiar to your paradigm and does not equate to mine. I don’t see what you say as being “pure”. You have a different understanding of pure than I do and that is OK.

Do you really not understand the typographical convention of “scare quotes”? I used the quotes to indicate that I was talking about what conservative Lutherans or Calvinists or whatever would consider “purity.” It’s a kind of purity inasmuch as it preserves adherence to the historic formularies of a particular tradition, but it’s certainly not what I would call purity in an absolute sense. Hence my use of quotes.

What did you think I was using the quotes for? Did you just not bother to notice them?

Oh, and on a more amicable note I really like your post 149!

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

that is what happened with those who left the CC and built churches of their own. they are at loss.

I entirely agree with you.

Where we might disagree is in how much loss the Catholic Church has also suffered from the various schisms. . . .

Edwin

 

[BrianH]

I am frosted that you are a regular member with less than 2000 posts and I am a junior member approaching 2000 posts. What gives? Since I am only a junior member allow me to suggest something.

I often see this notion of 1000’s and numerous denominations. It usually causes many to claim nonsense and that there are fewer than that, etc. I see the situation as thought. All thoughts transmit time…Protestant thought is not one thing…there are streams of thought that spawn other streams of thought…I have found it safe to say…

Anglican thought that gave rise to Methodist thought that gave rise to the holiness movement that gave rise to Pentacostal, AOG, church of Nazarene and the like…all primarily Wesleyan…

Then there is Lutheran thought that spawns the divisions within Lutheran thought, Baptist thought with division, Reformed/Calvinist thought…

and then there is the mixing of the thoughts as you see in ministries like Promise Keepers, Harvest Crusade…suggesting a mix of Calvinism and Arminianism…

and then there is mixing of the eschatologies

and the mixing and matching and permutations creates the ecclesial communities with mixed thoughts…then of course Calvinism creeps in everywhere as in the Baptist as the Doctrine of Grace…and so it goes

So the suggestion is to not dilineate numbers because there are those that take offense to the numbers and I have yet to see anyone object to “permutation of thought” originating from the original streams…

Anglican
Lutheran
Calvin
Methodist
Baptist
AnaBaptist

Take the idea or leave it, it was only a suggestion.

I have never heard it explained that way. It really is about…6 or 7 streams of thought. I would put an Anti-Trinitarian/Sabbath keeping stream in the mix because I am not really sure where the Adventists(yes I know they are not considered Anti-Trinitarian anymore), Armstrongism, JW and others stem from…

 

[CopticChristian]

I have never heard it explained that way. It really is about…6 or 7 streams of thought. I would put an Anti-Trinitarian/Sabbath keeping stream in the mix because I am not really sure where the Adventists(yes I know they are not considered Anti-Trinitarian anymore), Armstrongism, JW and others stem from…

And with that you look back in time to see that there were those that espoused something similar to what is seen today…

Oneness Pentacostal/Sabellianim…Mormons/Pelagians…Jehovah witness/Arian…and then Messianic Jews/Judaizing christians as told by Paul…and there is nothing new under the sun. These spring from Protestant thought reinventing thoughts of old…like produces like.

All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

8All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.

9The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

11There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

It was once said that if you think you have a new idea, you probably don’t read german. The reality is that I long ago discovered that if I thought I had a new idea that I was able to find someone somewhere that had also had that idea…

Will they never learn, they eat up my people as they eat bread…

 

[wisdomseeker]

I entirely agree with you.

Where we might disagree is in how much loss the Catholic Church has also suffered from the various schisms. . . .

Edwin

She suffered no loss since the Truth remains in her. those who left suffered much since they are in disobedience to God and caused much confusion among others who now dont know what to believe. those who left had nothing to gain. The only things is that she suffers for the loss of souls.

 

[CopticChristian]

I entirely agree with you.

Where we might disagree is in **how much loss the Catholic Church has also suffered from the various schisms. . . . **Edwin

Help me understand this “loss”.

What it is you see as “loss”?

You quantify this “loss”. Can loss be quantified and if so help me understand what it is you mean. This could be stated as, how little was lost as opposed to how much was lost and to do so there has to be someting to quantify. Tell me what you mean.

If there was suffering then what is the source of this suffering? You state that the schisms caused sufferings. Schisms are actions of people. The Church sees those that are Baptized as still part of the Church. Is this suffering intrinsic or extrinsic?

Explain what you mean so that I main gain knowledge from you.

Clarification for me would allow me to know if I disagree or agree.