Can repetative words/different words be added to Mass settings?

[CatholicZ09]

For example:

This is the Holy, Holy, Holy:

Holy, holy, holy Lord,
God of power and might,
heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

Examples from Heritage Mass (repetative words will be bolded)

Holy, Holy, holy Lord, God of power and might.
Heav’n and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna! Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna! Hosanna in the highest.

Examples from Mass of the Pilgrim Church

Holy, Holy, Holy Lord, God of pow’r and might,
heaven and earth are full of your glory, your glory.
Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he who comes
in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

Now, the Amen is simply: “Amen, Amen, Amen.”

Mass of the Pilgrim Church:

Amen. Amen. Amen,
Forever. Amen.

Now, is adding repetative “Hosanna’s” to the Sanctus liturgical abuse? Does it need to be exact word for word? Also, adding extra phrases like “your glory” in the Sanctus, and “forever” and “alleluia” to the Great Amen acceptable?

Thanks, this has been bothering me for a while.

 

[benedictgal]

For example:

This is the Holy, Holy, Holy:

Holy, holy, holy Lord,
God of power and might,
heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

Examples from Heritage Mass (repetative words will be bolded)

Holy, Holy, holy Lord, God of power and might.
Heav’n and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna! Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna! Hosanna in the highest.

Examples from Mass of the Pilgrim Church

Holy, Holy, Holy Lord, God of pow’r and might,
heaven and earth are full of your glory, your glory.
Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he who comes
in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

Now, the Amen is simply: “Amen, Amen, Amen.”

Mass of the Pilgrim Church:

Amen. Amen. Amen,
Forever. Amen.

Now, is adding repetative “Hosanna’s” to the Sanctus liturgical abuse? Does it need to be exact word for word? Also, adding extra phrases like “your glory” in the Sanctus, and “forever” and “alleluia” to the Great Amen acceptable?

Thanks, this has been bothering me for a while.

Forever and alleluia are not acceptable. No one is permitted to make any additions to the parts of the Mass. I raised this question with the CDWDS and they affirmed the answer. In fact, they asked me to send them copies of questionable Mass settings.

Here is what Redemptionis Sacramentum states:

[59.] The reprobated practice by which Priests, Deacons or the faithful here and there alter or vary at will the texts of the Sacred Liturgy that they are charged to pronounce, must cease. For in doing thus, they render the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy unstable, and not infrequently distort the authentic meaning of the Liturgy.

OCP, unfortunately, has several Mass settings in both English and in Spanish that violate this section. In fairness, GIA is also culpable, although not to the degree that OCP is. I have sent them Marty Haugen’s Mass of Creation as a glaring example. The CDWDS told me that they will take the appropriate action once they have receceived and reviewed what I sent over to them.

 

[Don9of11]

I don’t think so but I am no expert on the subject. Some of the Latin masses that I know have repeated Hosanna’s such as the Mass in G by Theodor von La Hache, the Christmas Carol Mass by James A, Korman and the mass Our Lady of Loretto by H.Mentzel.; Even Pope Paul VI mass and the Jubilate Deo mass all have repeated Hosanna’s.

 

[Bbigam]

Forever and alleluia are not acceptable. No one is permitted to make any additions to the parts of the Mass. I raised this question with the CDWDS and they affirmed the answer. In fact, they asked me to send them copies of questionable Mass settings.

OCP, unfortunately, has several Mass settings in both English and in Spanish that violate this section. In fairness, GIA is also culpable, although not to the degree that OCP is. I have sent them Marty Haugen’s Mass of Creation as a glaring example. The CDWDS told me that they will take the appropriate action once they have receceived and reviewed what I sent over to them.

Any idea if the extra “hosanna” in the Sanctus is acceptable? I was kind of thinking it seemed ok - it’s just a single word from the mass repeated. But I’m no expert and I haven’t seen anything clear in this regard.

I have to admit that I am quite partial to the Heritage Mass, particularly the Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. It’s very uplifting, and faithful to the words (unless the extra Hosanna makes it unfaithful). I am bothered by some other settings that change the words a lot - there are a lot of really bad versions of the Agnus Dei, for example.

Of course, a good Latin chant Mass setting is great too!

 

[benedictgal]

Any idea if the extra “hosanna” in the Sanctus is acceptable? I was kind of thinking it seemed ok - it’s just a single word from the mass repeated. But I’m no expert and I haven’t seen anything clear in this regard.

I have to admit that I am quite partial to the Heritage Mass, particularly the Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. It’s very uplifting, and faithful to the words (unless the extra Hosanna makes it unfaithful). I am bothered by some other settings that change the words a lot - there are a lot of really bad versions of the Agnus Dei, for example.

Of course, a good Latin chant Mass setting is great too!

The extra “hosanna” is not problematic. However, Haguent’s Mass of Creation takes excessive liberties. His Agnus Dei is not licit. He is not supposed to be adding extra tropes to the text. Hopefully, his work will soon become a thing of the past.

I’ll be honest. I do not care much for any of OCP’s Mass settings. I am partial to the settings composed by the late Richard Proulx. His death is a huge loss to those of us who love Sacred Music. I was so looking forward to his new compositions for the new translations of the Mass.

 

[EasterJoy]

The extra “hosanna” is not problematic.

I never thought of repetition being a problem…didn’t even Palastina do that?

 

[CatholicZ09]

Any idea if the extra “hosanna” in the Sanctus is acceptable? I was kind of thinking it seemed ok - it’s just a single word from the mass repeated. But I’m no expert and I haven’t seen anything clear in this regard.

I have to admit that I am quite partial to the Heritage Mass, particularly the Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. It’s very uplifting, and faithful to the words (unless the extra Hosanna makes it unfaithful). I am bothered by some other settings that change the words a lot - there are a lot of really bad versions of the Agnus Dei, for example.

Of course, a good Latin chant Mass setting is great too!

I do like Heritage Mass too. It stays more faithful to the words. From experience, Owen Alstott (who wrote Heritage Mass) doesn’t really take liberty with the texts. I usually don’t have to worry when I hear Heritage Mass being sung at Mass.

I have to thank my music director for not using some problematic settings like Mass of the Pilgrim Church and Mass of Hope.

However, he does sometimes use Mass of Creation, which I don’t really see a problem with except for the Lamb of God. He also uses Dan Schutte’s “Mass of God’s Promise”, which I don’t necessarily have a problem with except for the Gloria. Bob Dufford’s “St. Louis Jesuits Mass” can be problematic especially with the Amen and Lamb of God.

The Amen is like “Amen, alleluia, forever and ever, forever, alleluia, forever and ever. Amen.”

Benedictgal, what were some of the Mass settings you sent in?

Hopefully the new Mass settings won’t be problematic and hopefully they will be more faithful to the original text.

 

[Bbigam]

The extra “hosanna” is not problematic. However, Haguent’s Mass of Creation takes excessive liberties. His Agnus Dei is not licit. He is not supposed to be adding extra tropes to the text. Hopefully, his work will soon become a thing of the past.

I’ll be honest. I do not care much for any of OCP’s Mass settings. I am partial to the settings composed by the late Richard Proulx. His death is a huge loss to those of us who love Sacred Music. I was so looking forward to his new compositions for the new translations of the Mass.

I’m not really familiar with Proulx, but I’ve heard great things about him. Maybe someone will adapt his settings to the new texts. I guess the Gloria would be the most difficult since it’s the most changed (of the commonly sung people’s parts of the Mass). The Agnus Dei - in any faithful rendering - is one of my favorite prayers of the Mass. It really throws me off when they mess it up with lots of extra and different words.

I do like Heritage Mass too. It stays more faithful to the words. From experience, Owen Alstott (who wrote Heritage Mass) doesn’t really take liberty with the texts. I usually don’t have to worry when I hear Heritage Mass being sung at Mass.

I have to thank my music director for not using some problematic settings like Mass of the Pilgrim Church and Mass of Hope.

However, he does sometimes use Mass of Creation, which I don’t really see a problem with except for the Lamb of God. He also uses Dan Schutte’s “Mass of God’s Promise”, which I don’t necessarily have a problem with except for the Gloria. Bob Dufford’s “St. Louis Jesuits Mass” can be problematic especially with the Amen and Lamb of God.

The Amen is like “Amen, alleluia, forever and ever, forever, alleluia, forever and ever. Amen.”

Benedictgal, what were some of the Mass settings you sent in?

Hopefully the new Mass settings won’t be problematic and hopefully they will be more faithful to the original text.

At our parish - a very faithful and traditional one - we’ll only ever use the Heritage Mass and a simple Latin chant Mass, at least in my experience. (Once in a while we’ll use the Celtic Alleluia. Never anything that changes the words!) In my admittedly limited experience, other parishes around here seem to like the rather poor settings, ranging from “not very good” to “way off.” The Cathedral, an overall reverent parish, tends to use St. Louis Jesuits and the like. Thankfully they are using a Latin chant Mass this year for Lent! That’s a first for them!