Can Satan, or any of us, do anything that is beyond God's will?

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Robert_Sock

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I believe that we must not ever think that good and evil are opposed to each other because that would imply more than one God and is therefore a heresy. Moreover, I believe that good and evil work together in this world, and both are necessary for bringing about our salvation. It’s most interesting to look at evil this way, and I was wondering what are the philosophical implications. Do you agree with what I’m saying? If not, please explain your understanding, especially the notion that there is but one God whose will is manifested in all things, including evil.

Does our having free will go against there being just one God who is all powerful?

LOVE! ❤️
 
What you are saying is heterodox, so no, as a Catholic I can’t agree with it. But I also reject your notion “here is but one God whose will is manifested in all things, including evil.” God’s will is never manifested in evil. Evil is the result of the free choices created beings (us and the angels) make. To answer your original question, then, yes we can do things that are beyond God’s will - this is called sin.
 
I would say, yes, maybe, sort of…

God has given us the ability to say “no” to Him when it comes to our salvation.

For “God wills not the death of a sinner.”

Correction:

I misquoted scripture, so I"d have to recant a bit. Scripture states,

*This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
  • 1 Timothy 2: 3-4
This is something that he desires, but he allows all men to have free will. So my final answer is “no”.
 
PietroPaolo said:
What you are saying is heterodox, so no, as a Catholic I can’t agree with it. But I also reject your notion “here is but one God whose will is manifested in all things, including evil.” God’s will is never manifested in evil. Evil is the result of the free choices created beings (us and the angels) make. To answer your original question, then, yes we can do things that are beyond God’s will - this is called sin.
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Is it rational to assume that God would create beings who can go against His will? My claim is no, everything in the worlds is ultimately in conformity with God’s will.

LOVE! ❤️
 
God permits evil to draw a greater good from it. He does not ordain it directly.
 
to answer this, you would first need to know how the church define’s God’s will. ‘God wills that all men be saved’, and some religions interpret this as ‘all are saved’. but this is not the catholic interpretation, so God may allow things, that are not His will.
 
To answer your subject line question- Yes- in a manner of speaking. In giving us free will, God allows satan to tempt and torment us. To try to lead us astray… and he’s very good at it. Once we’ve let him in- we further ourselves from God and His plan for us. Allowing this to happen is NEVER God’s intention for us, but it is His will to allow us to choose. There have been many known saints who have been brutally attacked over the course of their lives by demonic entities. When visited by patron saints, Jesus or our Holy Mother it was explained to them that should they choose to allow it- God was to give satan PERMISSION to attack them. This suffering was asked of them for the conversion of sinners. Some of these saints were even shown images of the people they suffered for. There’s a saint who was even dragged to hell over 100 times- and who is known to have suffered every torture in hell.
So- how I understand it: if you are faithful to God, follow the sacraments and lead your life as Jesus taught us to- satan or his minions can’t touch you without the express permission of God. If you have strayed- or have never known God- satan already has you where he wants you and can torment you as he wishes.

To comment on your post: I wholeheartedly disagree. There is only one God- of pure Love (that we both agree on obviously). There is no need for a balance of good and evil in life (yin&yang). As humans- we have to strive for sainthood… and repel everything that is evil. That’s the beauty of living God’s will- the promise of a life after death in HEAVEN- free of satan and his evil demons.
 
Robert_Sock said:
Is it rational to assume that God would create beings who can go against His will? My claim is no, everything in the worlds is ultimately in conformity with God’s will.

LOVE! ❤️
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And your claim is exactly where you go astray. God created beings who can go against His will because doing so was a greater good than not so doing. It is only b/c we are free that we can LOVE! ❤️ . Love cannot be compelled. If God had opted to create robots incapable of doing anything other than His will, there would be no LOVE! ❤️ in the universe. Thus God, in an act of LOVE! ❤️ , created beings that can thwart His will. When we do this, we sin. You’re view would eliminate LOVE! ❤️ and sin (and thus the need of a Savior). In other words, your view is incapable of being reconciled with Christianity.
 
PietroPaolo said:
And your claim is exactly where you go astray. God created beings who can go against His will because doing so was a greater good than not so doing. It is only b/c we are free that we can LOVE! ❤️ . Love cannot be compelled. If God had opted to create robots incapable of doing anything other than His will, there would be no LOVE! ❤️ in the universe. Thus God, in an act of LOVE! ❤️ , created beings that can thwart His will. When we do this, we sin. You’re view would eliminate LOVE! ❤️ and sin (and thus the need of a Savior). In other words, your view is incapable of being reconciled with Christianity.
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I firmly believe that God is all good, but I also believe that there is evil and that this evil must therefore be relative to the worlds that God created. God allows evil, but did not create it per se.

LOVE! ❤️
 
Robert_Sock said:
Is it rational to assume that God would create beings who can go against His will? My claim is no, everything in the worlds is ultimately in conformity with God’s will.

LOVE! ❤️
Click to expand...
In Judaism, I believe evil is seen as a test for mankind to adhere to G-d’s will despite the former’s pain and suffering. The evil in the world may bring out the best in people in a partnership with G-d or it may cause them to reject G-d, but the choice based on their free will is theirs. At the same time, in the end, there is the optimistic belief that good will conquer evil.
 
Robert,

There are some Christian perspectives (notably the Calvinistic ones) that do regard God’s absolute sovereignty as an important enough truth that they are willing to say He directly wills everything, even the sinful acts and subsequent damnation of some people. As long as you are comfortable with God being the direct author of evil and creating some people not to live with Him forever but purely as a warning to others, that can work.

Other Christians are not comfortable with those conclusions, and so generally hold to a distinction between what God directly wills (in the sense of “wants or prefers to happen”) and what God passively wills (in the sense of “allows to be possible.”) So God wills the possibility of choosing against Him but does not actually want it to happen. Under that view, we cannot act outside of His will in the sense that we cannot do anything unless He wills to permit it, but we can act against His will in the sense of doing things He would rather we not. Since we are told both that He wills the salvation of all and that damnation is a real possibility, this distinction between what God allows and what God wants seems to fit the facts better than an insistence on His absolute sovereignty over every choice and eventuality.

Usagi
 
job is one good example of good, evil and God’s will/permission. clearly, He doesn’t will job’s suffering, but He does allow it.
 
meltzerboy said:
In Judaism, I believe evil is seen as a test for mankind to adhere to G-d’s will despite the former’s pain and suffering. The evil in the world may bring out the best in people in a partnership with G-d or it may cause them to reject G-d, but the choice based on their free will is theirs. At the same time, in the end, there is the optimistic belief that good will conquer evil.
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The main reason I created this thread was to stall potential heretical thoughts here on CAF that imply that God is in complete opposition of evil. For our sake, He is not. God wants us to climb His “ladder” of pure love, but knows we are prone to failure and thus allows us to commit evil. We live in a world of good and evil, not a world of good versus evil. I hear what you say about Judaism on the nature of evil, and I accept it.

LOVE! ❤️
 
meltzerboy said:
In Judaism, I believe evil is seen as a test for mankind to adhere to G-d’s will despite the former’s pain and suffering. The evil in the world may bring out the best in people in a partnership with G-d or it may cause them to reject G-d, but the choice based on their free will is theirs. At the same time, in the end, there is the optimistic belief that good will conquer evil.
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:yup: We Catholics hold a similar worldview.
bisco said:
we fight a spiritual battle of good vs evil, do we not?
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:yup:
God, in his vast intelligence, may utilize evil for his own purposes, but he doesn’t actually approve of its presence.
 
All that our Lord does is rightful,
what he tolerates is honorable,
and in these two is included both good and evil.
All that is good our Lord does,
and what is evil our Lord tolerates.
(I say not that any evil is honorable,
but I say the toleration of our Lord God is honorable,
whereby His goodness shall be known without end in His
marvelous humility and gentleness,
by the action of mercy and grace.)
-REVELATIONS OF DIVINE LOVE, Chapter 21,Julian of Norwich
 
I think God’s master plan for us is what pokes a big hole in your theory though Robert. Our end destination is not to a place that has the perfect balance of good and evil. It is to a place God created that is pure perfection. A place God himself created for us all to live together with Him in eternal peace. God didn’t create evil- therefore evil is not needed. Anything not created by God is not necessary- least of all evil- which is snatching up the precious souls of the sons and daughters he created with love.
 
i don’t think it implies more than one god, it’s the battle between Jesus Christ, and satan and his minions. and we have to choose a side.
 
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