Can someone be Catholic and later turn Protestant?

[1ke]

How is it possible to formally defect from the Faith by contacting his bishop? What would one do walk into the bishops office and say “I don’t want to be Catholic anymore, so put me on your do not call list?” I don’t understand how you can be relieved of obligations? Do you have any examples of this?

There was a canon law procedure called formal defection, which removed certain obligations under canon law regarding the form of marriage. This procedure no longer exists.

Yes, formal defection is a notice to the bishop in writing renouncing one’s faith. The bishop then has to receive that defection and accept it.

It does not make one “not Catholic.”

It acknowledges that the person is choosing to reject the faith. Where this can have implication is in countries with a state religion and a religion tax. The only way to stop paying the tax is to formally be removed from the Church roles as a member. There are people who do formally defect, but most just leave without taking the steps necessary to do so formally. By the time they’ve decided to leave, they’ve rejected the authority of the Church over them.

This seems confusing Ie. someone who claims they have a disability and can’t work, but in reality they really don’t have a disability and get free checks from the government.

There’s nothing free about it. There is a very steep price: Hell.

 

[1ke]

So, if someone’s Catholic parents have them baptized as an infant, that person is just stuck with Catholicism for their whole life? Like it or not? Whether they believe in the teachings of the Church or not? That’s just silly.

It isn’t silly. That you think it is silly shows a lack of understanding of what baptism is and more importantly what it does.

Equally silly, I suppose, is arguing about it. If this baptized person decides that Catholicism just isn’t his cup of tea and decides to leave, he probably isn’t going to care one way or the other what the Church teaches. It simply won’t matter.

The question wasn’t what the person leaving thinks about it, but what the Church teaches on the matter.

 

[rick43235]

It isn’t silly. That you think it is silly shows a lack of understanding of what baptism is and more importantly what it does.

Why is it that whenever someone does not believe a Catholic teaching, the typical response is to say “you just don’t understand”? The fact is, I do understand what the Church teaches about baptism. Even so, I still reject it as silliness.

 

[masuwerte]

1ke, do you think the Catholic Church holds people in it against their will?

 

[1ke]

1ke, do you think the Catholic Church holds people in it against their will?

no

 

[masuwerte]

I wouldn’t put it that way,either, but I am having a hard time understanding “once catholic, always catholic”. Can you recommend anything I could read about this?

 

[1ke]

I wouldn’t put it that way,either, but I am having a hard time understanding “once catholic, always catholic”. Can you recommend anything I could read about this?

I’d suggest starting with the Catechism discussion on what a Sacrament is, then the Sacraments Baptism and Confirmation. Follow this with the Catechism discussion on the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

What, specifically, are you having trouble with, if I may ask?

 

[masuwerte]

Thanks for your recommendations, but maybe I’d better look for something a little more basic. This is not something I want to debate, I just want to understand what the Catholic Church teaches. I know it teaches that belief and conversion are voluntary, but how does that work with infant baptism? I have a nephew who was baptized Catholic, but his parents raised him in the Episcopal Church, so now he has to request a dispensation or his marriage is invalid? Or a person who was taken into the Church through fraud, bribery, threat or poor instruction? I’ve been to RCIA and I know that the instructors sometimes don’t do a very good job. Thanks for your patience with me, ke.

 

[1ke]

Thanks for your recommendations, but maybe I’d better look for something a little more basic. This is not something I want to debate, I just want to understand what the Catholic Church teaches.

I wasn’t assuming you wanted to debate. I was trying to understand the exact nature of your issue/question.

I recommended those sections of the catechism because they explain the Church’s teaching about the necessary and indelible nature of baptism along with the oneness of the Church.

Baptism makes you a member of the Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. You cannot change that by disassociating yourself from the Church. You might *call *yourself something else, but it doesn’t change the *reality *of who you are. The seal of baptism *changes *your soul. Once changed, it cannot be changed back.

I know it teaches that belief and conversion are voluntary, but how does that work with infant baptism?

The parents make the promise to raise the child in the faith. The parents have authority over their children and can make that decision on their behalf.

I have a nephew who was baptized Catholic, but his parents raised him in the Episcopal Church, so now he has to request a dispensation or his marriage is invalid?

Yes, that is correct.

Or a person who was taken into the Church through fraud, bribery, threat or poor instruction?

A person over the age of reason must request baptism. But, presenting themselves for baptism indicates their desire to be baptized. I am not an expert in canon law, so I cannot say with certainty when a baptism would be invalid based on some type of fraud or coersion.

I’ve been to RCIA and I know that the instructors sometimes don’t do a very good job. Thanks for your patience with me, ke.

The instructor’s abilities do not have bearing on the validity of the baptism.

 

[StevenFrancis]

If one is a baptised Christian under the trinitarian formula, they are already Catholic. It is the universal Church created by Jesus Christ, the second person of the trinity. There are many Catholics who consider themselves “Protestant” in that they are in protest against the primacy of St. Peter, the veneration of Mary or any number of other things about the universal Christian Church. They may decide at any time to approach the Church with their decision to live a sacramental life, or even if they are discerning.

I a Catholic Christian has lived a sacramental life in the Church up to a point, and they leaves for atheism, some other religions etc. It is my understanding they have “excommunicated” themselves. They are still Catholic. They are just not currently in communion with the Holy See. At any point they can repent, enjoy reconciliation and Holy Eucharist, and they’re right back on the horse.

As far as I know there are no Christians who are not Catholic. Some are not currently living a sacramental life in communion with the Church. Some may never even set foot inside the Church. But if they were baptised in the name of the Faother, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, with water as the medium, they’re His and consequently ours, (The Church). Then it’s up to the individual, and their free will what level of cooperation with the Church they exhibit or feel. It can always turn on a dime, and Jesus is ALWAYS here, with wide open arms for those returning, or experiencing it for the first time. I was a Buddhist and a new age whatever for most of my life. I went to Lutheran Suday School as a youngster and was baptized at a Foursquare Church when I was in perochial junior high. Because of that baptism, when I presented myself, FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME, to the Catholic Church at 48 years old, I was already a Catholic Christian. Just not one who had ever experienced the Real Presence of Christ before, or lived sacramentally. If I ever leave, (and I can’t even imagine - "To whom would we go? You are the one with the the words of everlasting life).

Peace to all,

Steven

God bless,

Steven

 

[1ke]

Thanks for your recommendations, but maybe I’d better look for something a little more basic. This is not something I want to debate, I just want to understand what the Catholic Church teaches. I know it teaches that belief and conversion are voluntary, but how does that work with infant baptism? I have a nephew who was baptized Catholic, but his parents raised him in the Episcopal Church, so now he has to request a dispensation or his marriage is invalid? Or a person who was taken into the Church through fraud, bribery, threat or poor instruction? I’ve been to RCIA and I know that the instructors sometimes don’t do a very good job. Thanks for your patience with me, ke.

So I thought about this a little more, and thought maybe an analogy would be good.

You are born to a particular set of parents in the natural order. You can leave the family, change your last name, get adopted, disown them, etc, but they will always be your parents. You cannot change that biological fact. If you came back to them, they would take welcome you back to your family. You can’t ever be anything but family no matter how you “feel” about them or what you “believe.”

As for free will or force, it doesn’t enter into the picture-- those terms don’t make sense in relation to being a member of your family. They don’t make sense with regard to God’s family either. The command was to go to the ends of the earth baptizing-- God wants everyone to be a member of his family. Parents have an obligation to see that this happens for their children.

Through baptism we are made part of God’s family. We enter the New Covenant and become members of the Body of Christ. This is the same way that Jewish babies and converts became members of the Covenant with God through circumcision. They became members of a family. We do too, through baptism. Hopefully our parents bring us into this family of God-- but if they don’t we can do so under our own power.

Once we are members of the family of God, we are his children forever. We can walk away, denounce, renounce, etc, but we are always members of his family-- The Catholic Church. We can go to schismatic sects or those with heterodox beliefs, which maintains some level of communion within the Body but incomplete, but we are always Catholic. We can apostacize and reject God, which severs our communion completely, but we are always Catholic. Even those baptized in non-Catholic ecclesial communities or in schismatic Churches are Catholic, they are not in complete communion but they are Catholic.

HTH

 

[Willy_Jose]

Hi 1ke,

You said “We can walk away, denounce, renounce, etc, but we are always members of his family-- The Catholic Church”. Could you elaborate on this in relation to “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.”. Thanks.

 

[1ke]

Hi 1ke,

You said “We can walk away, denounce, renounce, etc, but we are always members of his family-- The Catholic Church”. Could you elaborate on this in relation to "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.". Thanks.

Certainly. That would be Hell. Which is our eternal destination for rejecting God. Doesn’t mean we are not still members of the family.

 

[rick43235]

So, if someone’s Catholic parents have them baptized as an infant, that person is just stuck with Catholicism for their whole life? Like it or not? Whether they believe in the teachings of the Church or not? That’s just silly.

You are born to a particular set of parents in the natural order. You can leave the family, change your last name, get adopted, disown them, etc, but they will always be your parents. You cannot change that biological fact. If you came back to them, they would take welcome you back to your family. You can’t ever be anything but family no matter how you “feel” about them or what you “believe.”

I don’t know…maybe hell froze over or something…but this actually makes sense to me. While I can’t claim to believe what the Catholic Church teaches regarding baptism, I have to admit that this is a reasonable way of looking at it. Doesn’t seem quite so silly anymore.

StevenFrancis:

As far as I know there are no Christians who are not Catholic. Some are not currently living a sacramental life in communion with the Church. Some may never even set foot inside the Church. But if they were baptised in the name of the Faother, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, with water as the medium, they’re His and consequently ours, (The Church).

OK, so we’re serving up some more silliness here…with a heaping helping of arrogance. I suspect that there are millions of baptized Christians out there who would be more than a little offended to learn that you consider them to be Catholics. (Is this even an authentic Church teaching???)

 

[1ke]

I don’t know…maybe hell froze over or something…but this actually makes sense to me. While I can’t claim to believe what the Catholic Church teaches regarding baptism, I have to admit that this is a reasonable way of looking at it. Doesn’t seem quite so silly anymore.

That’s what I mean by it seeming silly because you didn’t understand it. I wasn’t implying that understand = accept or understand = embrace. I mean understand = it’s logical (within the belief system of Catholicism).

So, I’m glad you can see why the Church teaches what it does and why covenant relationship of family is not revocable.

OK, so we’re serving up some more silliness here…with a heaping helping of arrogance. I suspect that there are millions of baptized Christians out there who would be more than a little offended to learn that you consider them to be Catholics. (Is this even an authentic Church teaching???)

It’s not silliness for the same reason that my above statements aren’t silliness. They are a logical outgrowth of the Catholic teaching on Baptism and on the Church.

When you are baptized into the the Body of Christ, there’s only ONE body to get baptized into. So, there’s only one family you can get baptized into. The Catholic Church recognizes that that Body **is **the Church. Not just some vague “body of believers” but THE Church. The ONLY Church. The Catholic Church. Hence my suggestion to read about the Church’s teaching on the Church being One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

So, when you are baptized, there’s only one Church/one family you can be baptized into. That does not mean that you are in full communion or under canon law. If you or your parents did not approach the Catholic Church for baptism and intend to enter into that relationship, then you are still baptized but not in full, visible communion.

This is the reason that when a baptized non-Catholic approaches the Catholic Church for entry, they are not “re-baptized”. There’s only one baptism. They already have it. They are already a member of the Church. Which Church? There’s only one possibility because as there’s only one Church.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Would I expect a Lutheran or a Methodist to agree with that? No. But that’s because they have a different understanding of Sacraments and of “Church.”

 

[rick43235]

It’s not silliness for the same reason that my above statements aren’t silliness.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Actually, it does. Again, I don’t “embrace” what you are saying, but I acknowledge the logic. Thanks.

 

[StevenFrancis]

That’s what I mean by it seeming silly because you didn’t understand it. I wasn’t implying that understand = accept or understand = embrace. I mean understand = it’s logical (within the belief system of Catholicism).

So, I’m glad you can see why the Church teaches what it does and why covenant relationship of family is not revocable.

It’s not silliness for the same reason that my above statements aren’t silliness. They are a logical outgrowth of the Catholic teaching on Baptism and on the Church.

When you are baptized into the the Body of Christ, there’s only ONE body to get baptized into. So, there’s only one family you can get baptized into. The Catholic Church recognizes that that Body **is **the Church. Not just some vague “body of believers” but THE Church. The ONLY Church. The Catholic Church. Hence my suggestion to read about the Church’s teaching on the Church being One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

So, when you are baptized, there’s only one Church/one family you can be baptized into. That does not mean that you are in full communion or under canon law. If you or your parents did not approach the Catholic Church for baptism and intend to enter into that relationship, then you are still baptized but not in full, visible communion.

This is the reason that when a baptized non-Catholic approaches the Catholic Church for entry, they are not “re-baptized”. There’s only one baptism. They already have it. They are already a member of the Church. Which Church? There’s only one possibility because as there’s only one Church.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Would I expect a Lutheran or a Methodist to agree with that? No. But that’s because they have a different understanding of Sacraments and of “Church.”

Hi:

I said this same thing a ways back. This was stated SO much better than my quite hastily written screed. I explained this so poorly that I was called “arrogant” by someone or other. That saddens me. I wasn’t expressing what I consider as personal ‘opinion’, so I don’t know how I could have sinned in arrogance. I did re-read it though. Poor spelling, raw emotion and too quickly written.

Thanks for this,

Steven

 

[1SeekingChrist]

I think part of the misunderstanding or confusion on this matter comes from a misunderstanding or lack of understanding on what the word “Catholic” actually means, and the context within which we use it.

The word “Catholic” comes from the greek word “katolikos” which means literally “universal.” Thus when we speak of the Catholic Church in the context of baptism (and actually in all contexts but that’s another discussion) we refer to the Universal Church. As the Church that Christ established on the earth, we Catholics believe that the “Catholic Church” is the true representation of the Universal Church on earth. There are many Christians baptized in other ecclesial communities, but when they are baptized they are not baptized into the Lutheran or Methodist or Episcopal ecclesial community, they are baptized into the Universal (Catholic) Church. Thus every baptized person is Catholic. It’s like the name of that family you’re born into. If your last name is Smith but you’re adopted by the Johnsons, you may take the last name of Johnson but by blood, by genetics, in everything BUT name, you’re still a Smith. You’re born (by baptism) Catholic, but immediately you join a community of those who take the name Methodist, you’re still Catholic, but not in name.

Catholic isn’t a matter of what you believe but what you are.

 

[DeaconDen]

When baptized Christians of other denominations wish to convert to Catholicism, they are not rebaptized. The Catholic Church accepts the validity of the sacrament received previously in the non-Catholic faith. It is the understanding that we are all baptized in Christ regardless of Church affiliation. It saddens me to see the push towards Christian unity, that was more evident after the 2nd Vatican Council dwindle, although recent talks with the Orthodox give me hope. There is just ONE baptism in Christ.