Can Someone Explain Gnosticism to Me?

[genesius28]

The Apostles Creed, the structure of administration based on the episcopacy, and the Apostles appointing successors and teaching their followers were in place by 100 AD, including the basic elements, structure, and spirit we witness today in our liturgy, based not on man but the working of Pentecost – the coming of the Holy Spirit Who draws all believers into Christ…

The Apostles’ Creed was first mentioned, without clearly saying what it was refering to, in a letter to Pope Siricius in 390 AD. It was based on the shorter Old Roman Symbol, which in turn, was based on the Rule of Faith written in the 2nd century. The Roman Symbol was almost the same as the Apostles’ Creed, except that it didn’t include lines like “maker of heaven and earth,” and only says “the Holy Church,” without the word “Catholic.” It was first referenced in about 340, and may have arisen in response to the Arian controversy. So the Apostles’ Creed doesn’t date back to 100 AD. But it does date to after the Council of Nicea.

In any case, there’s nothing in either of these creeds that doesn’t apply to Gnostics.

Gnosticism does not bear witness to the tradition of faith…God coming to a gathering of people…as well as bearing the marks of Christ’s Churcn – noting order here, One as we are of One B ody, Soul, Mind and Divinity in Christ, Holy – sanctity sourced in Christ, Apstolic–teachings are insured through the Holy Spirit and passed down through each generation, and Catholic, Greek word meaning universal and signifying Christ came for all, not a select few.

If you could Kathleen, please cite your evidence for this. The ancient Gnostics, particularly Valentinians as can be seen in their writings, considered themselves in full communion with the other Christians, as there was no conflict in these basic beliefs. Gnostics believed Christ came to gather His people. There’s nothing you’ve said here that doesn’t apply to Gnostics.

 

[KathleenGee]

Again, what we must look at first is the issue of being witness.

Mohammed did not have witnesses, yet people followed him. Christ had witnesses, not one or two or three, but 12…and Israel identifies the 12 tribes of Israel…and 12 is also the symbol of perfection of all believers of the Church.

Christ died on the Cross, He rose from the dead on Sunday, and that Sunday evening He came to teach them all what Scripture meant, and before He left, broke bread and ate with them, He gave the Apostles authority to forgive sin…and then He suddenly disappeared, His earthly mission completed…but pointing the way to the means of establishing His Church, and instructors that He would leave them The Comforter Who would teach them many things.

The Comforter came at Pentecost – the beginning of the Church. For some time, the Apostles in the Book of Acts, and their Letters, establishing and instructing many Churches, and making sure the true witness of Christ and His Oral Tradition was understood and passed on. The apostles had followers. There were those who were appointed bishops and deacons with presbyters. There came about the liturgy and what happens at the liturgy.

St. Peter exhorted believers to only listen to the Apostles who were witnesses to His Majesty Our Lord in the second Letter of St Peter. And this tradition of faith is what makes one of the marks, Apostolic. We listen to no other ideas or concepts that are contrary to the Apostles – and subsequently how these concepts of faith are put into practice for the faithful.

There was indeed a creed that was brought forth by the Apostles. There was profession of faith and belief in primitive, early liturgies. It was St. Ireneaus who further concretized these beliefs – in his work opposing Gnosticism. And the form of the Apostles Creed developed using phrases that were added but in no way compromised their teachings…but simply reflected the mission of the Church for all believers.

You can check out Catholic history on the creed…but there is no change in our belief system. It has always been the same. There are those scholars who dispute or challenge or question, but the Holy Spirit always guides us as to where we keep our focus of faith.

I am also referring from the original text for church history beginners, used at clerical seminaries…can give you links later…

I appreciate your good will…the goal Christ prayed for was that we would be one as He is one with the Father…and He has called us to be one at the banquet table…not just in words, but in flesh in practice.

 

[MtnDwellar]

If you could Kathleen, please cite your evidence for this. The ancient Gnostics, particularly Valentinians as can be seen in their writings, considered themselves in full communion with the other Christians, as there was no conflict in these basic beliefs. Gnostics believed Christ came to gather His people. There’s nothing you’ve said here that doesn’t apply to Gnostics.

Arguing the virtues of Gnosticism will be rough. There are many different groups that identify as Gnostics. They do not have a central authority and there are great variances between them.

Some of them claim loyalty to Rome, even though they are not recognized by the Vatican. Others are strongly opposed to the Vatican. Some appear similar to very traditional Catholics. Others incorporate more diverse teachings and work closely with Free Masons.

 

[KathleenGee]

MtnDweller…have been in and out…

Here is a second century Gnostic Apostles Creed:

‘We believe that Christ descended from the Power above, from the Good, and that He is the Son of the Good; that He was not born of a virgin, and that He did appear that He was not devoid of the flesh; that He formed His Body by taking portions of it from the substance of the universe; i.e., hot and cold, moist and dry, that He received cosmical powers in the Body, and lived for the time He did in the world; that He was crucified by the Jews and died; that being raised again after three days He appeared to His disciples, that He showed them the prints of the nails and the wound on His side, being desirous of persuading them that He was no phantom, but was present in the flesh; of His Body He gave back heat to what i hot, cold to what is cold, moisture to what is moist, and dryness to what is dry; that in this condition He departed to the Good Father, leaving the Seed of Life in the world for others through His disciples should believe in Him.’

St. Ireneaus, who lived likewise in the second century, affirmed the Apostles Creed, along with Tertullian. Likewise the Roman Apostles Creed was affirmed going back to ancient times, and variations of it in use in the Eastern Church. It is most likely, the Roman Creed was dictated by SS Peter and Paul, or atleast, by their chosen successors.

St. Ireneaus developed a most sophisticated and all encompassing argument against Gnosticism that is referenced today.

In ancient times, however, the Apostles Creed was intended to be spoken rather than written. The Latin and Greek variations were almost identical, except that there was no Latin translation for ‘life everlasting’.

However, as St. Peter exhorted in his 2 Letter of Peter, that we are not to listen to anyone but the actual witnesses of the Lord, and that Scripture is not intended for private revelation. The Apostles spent their time founding Christ’s Church, but were not theologians.

The science of Christology was developed later. There was a priest, Arius, who challenged his bishop, successor to the apostles…that Christ had a beginning and an end. This opposes the truth that Christ is God, always was, and always will be. It is through Jesus Christ that the universe was created. St. Athanasius went to work to declare that Christ was of the same substance of God. He was removed from his position 5 times, going into exile. The pope wavered. Many bishops were falling into Arianism. It was St. Athanasius and subsequently the following Council of Nicea that finally fully defined Christ as True God and True Man.

If we did not believe that Christ is God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, then we would fall back into polytheism and pagan idolatry of many gods, and various forms of gnosticism.

 

[ndismyhome]

Multiple Christianities. Sigh. Not this again. I find it ironic that the theory, which is used to validate Gnostic teachings (among others) is Gnostic in its assumptions. In order for this theory to be true, Jesus cannot be a person, nor can the Church be in a mystical communion with Him. The only way for multiple Christianities to be valid is for “Christ” to be some corpus of doctrine which each congregation picked and chose from at their leisure. Only if Jesus is a construct, and not a real, living person, can every early “Christian” group be valid in its understanding of Jesus.

Secondly, several figures in the early Church were aware of differences between “proto-orthodox” Christians and Gnostic-Christians. Ignatius, Clement, and Irenaeus all make mention of these peoples. Ignatius, for example, wrote against Docetic Gnostics in his letter to the Smyrnaeans. I point this out because, contrary to most of todays “scholarship”, early churches did see boundaries to acceptable belief, and not every group who called itself Christian was understood to be such by others. Even Paul writes to this effect in the New Testament!

 

[KathleenGee]

The Apostles mission was to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ as His chosen witnesses…which is the foundation of the Roman/Orthodox Churches. The reality that the Roman Creed was either drawn by SS Peter and Paul or their immediate successors with variants used in Eastern Orthodoxy also implies the primacy of Rome.

The Holy Spirit comes from the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the new events are the lives of the Church and saints as our new focus along with the ancient figures of the Old Testament.

Christ gave us His apostles, not just one person or two, but twelve…where one left but was replaced. The Apostles had their directive and empowerment from the Holy Spirit. Prior to that, even though they encountered Jesus and continued to be instructed by Him on the Day of the Resurrection, they still remained hidden and in fear.

It was the Holy Spirit Who took away their fears, and gave them strength and clarity of faith to out and speak to all assembled, even to those of different tongues.

We cannot look at Christ’s Church without the Holy Spirit, otherwise people reduce Church developments and decisions as disputes. The Church was under great persecution from time to time in its early years, but there was an amazing common faith and practice throughout the ancient world at that time, this feat not possible humanly, but through the Holy Spirit.

The Church just didn’t come out ready made as a human institution. It had to be done through ‘Treasures of Clay’.

I only go so far debating others here and spend time more praying for conversions not only to Christ, but to His Church so that we may be all one…and then the world will believe.