F
FCEGM
Guest
Right, NI. And I need to correct myself, the person who wrote the hymn was a Passionist, not a Redemptorist.
- Status
A
alexdhanvate
Guest
I]Praise the Lord
My Dear Sister Judi,
Lord said " Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know." Jeremiah 33:3
Perhaps the most outstanding proof that Mary worship developed out of the old worship of the pagan mother goddess may be seen from the fact that in pagan religion, the mother was worshipped as much (or more) than her son! This provides an outstanding clue to help us solve the mystery of Babylon today!
True Christianity teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ and He alone is The way, The Truth and The Life; that He alone, of all the earth’s creatures, has ever lived a life that was never stained with sin; and He is to be Worshipped, ***never His mother ***but Roman Catholicism showing the influence that paganism has had in its development in many ways exalts the MOTHER also.
One can travel the world over, and whether in a massive cathedral or in a village chapel, the statue of Mary will occupy a prominent position. In reciting the Rosary the “Hail Mary” is repeated nine times as often as the “Lords Prayer”. Catholics are taught that the reason for praying to Mary is that she can take the petition to her Son, Jesus Christ and since she is His ***mother ***He will answer the request for her sake. The inference is that Mary is more compassionate, understanding, and merciful than her Son Jesus Christ. Certainly this is contrary to the scriptures! Yet this idea has often been repeated in Catholic writings.
One noted Roman Catholic writer Alphonsus Liguori, wrote at length telling how more effectual prayers are that are addressed to Mary rather than to Christ. Liguori incidently, was canonized as a “Saint” by Pope Gregory XIV in 1839 and was declared a “doctor of the Catholic Church by Pope Pius IX. In one portion of his writings, he described an imaginary scene in which a sinful man saw two ladders hanging from heaven. Mary was at top of one and Jesus on top of the other. When the sinner tried to climb the one ladder, he saw a angry face of Christ and fell defeated, but when he climbed Mary’s ladder he ascended easily and was openly welcomed by Mary who brought him into heaven and presented him to Christ! Then all was well. The story was supposed to show how much easier and more effective it is to go to Christ through Mary.
The same writer said that the sinner who ventures to come directly to Christ may come with dread of his wrath, but if he prays to the Virgin, she will only have to “show” the son “the breasts that gave him suck”
And his wrath will be immediately appeased! Such reasoning is in direct conflict with scriptural example. “Blessed is the womb that bare thee”, a woman said to Jesus, “and the paps that thou has sucked!” but Jesus answered, “Yea, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it”. (Luke 11:27-28).
Such ideas about the breasts, on the other hand, were not foreign to the worshippers of the pagan mother goddess. Images of her have been unearthed which often show her breasts extremely out of proportion to her body. In the case of Diana, to symbolize her fertility, she is picture with as many as one hundred breasts!
Further attempts to exalt Mary to a glorified position within Catholicism may be seen in the doctrine of the “immaculate conception.” This doctrine was pronounced and defined by Pius IX in 1854 that the Blessed Virgin Mary “in the first instant of her conception … was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.” It would appear that this teaching is only a further effort to make Mary more closely resemble the goddess of paganism, for in the old myths; the goddess was also believed to have had a supernatural conception! The stories varied, but all told of supernatural happenings in connection with her entrance into the world, that she was superior to ordinary mortals, that she was divine.
Little by little, so that the teachings about Mary would not appear inferior to those of the mother goddess, it was necessary to teach that Mary’s entrance into the world involved a supernatural element also!
Is the doctrine that Mary was born without the stain of original sin scriptural? We will answer this in the words of The Catholic Encyclopedia itself: “No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from scripture”. It is pointed out, rather that these ideas were gradual ***development ***within the Church
Cont.Page2
My Dear Sister Judi,
Lord said " Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know." Jeremiah 33:3
Perhaps the most outstanding proof that Mary worship developed out of the old worship of the pagan mother goddess may be seen from the fact that in pagan religion, the mother was worshipped as much (or more) than her son! This provides an outstanding clue to help us solve the mystery of Babylon today!
True Christianity teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ and He alone is The way, The Truth and The Life; that He alone, of all the earth’s creatures, has ever lived a life that was never stained with sin; and He is to be Worshipped, ***never His mother ***but Roman Catholicism showing the influence that paganism has had in its development in many ways exalts the MOTHER also.
One can travel the world over, and whether in a massive cathedral or in a village chapel, the statue of Mary will occupy a prominent position. In reciting the Rosary the “Hail Mary” is repeated nine times as often as the “Lords Prayer”. Catholics are taught that the reason for praying to Mary is that she can take the petition to her Son, Jesus Christ and since she is His ***mother ***He will answer the request for her sake. The inference is that Mary is more compassionate, understanding, and merciful than her Son Jesus Christ. Certainly this is contrary to the scriptures! Yet this idea has often been repeated in Catholic writings.
One noted Roman Catholic writer Alphonsus Liguori, wrote at length telling how more effectual prayers are that are addressed to Mary rather than to Christ. Liguori incidently, was canonized as a “Saint” by Pope Gregory XIV in 1839 and was declared a “doctor of the Catholic Church by Pope Pius IX. In one portion of his writings, he described an imaginary scene in which a sinful man saw two ladders hanging from heaven. Mary was at top of one and Jesus on top of the other. When the sinner tried to climb the one ladder, he saw a angry face of Christ and fell defeated, but when he climbed Mary’s ladder he ascended easily and was openly welcomed by Mary who brought him into heaven and presented him to Christ! Then all was well. The story was supposed to show how much easier and more effective it is to go to Christ through Mary.
The same writer said that the sinner who ventures to come directly to Christ may come with dread of his wrath, but if he prays to the Virgin, she will only have to “show” the son “the breasts that gave him suck”
And his wrath will be immediately appeased! Such reasoning is in direct conflict with scriptural example. “Blessed is the womb that bare thee”, a woman said to Jesus, “and the paps that thou has sucked!” but Jesus answered, “Yea, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it”. (Luke 11:27-28).
Such ideas about the breasts, on the other hand, were not foreign to the worshippers of the pagan mother goddess. Images of her have been unearthed which often show her breasts extremely out of proportion to her body. In the case of Diana, to symbolize her fertility, she is picture with as many as one hundred breasts!
Further attempts to exalt Mary to a glorified position within Catholicism may be seen in the doctrine of the “immaculate conception.” This doctrine was pronounced and defined by Pius IX in 1854 that the Blessed Virgin Mary “in the first instant of her conception … was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.” It would appear that this teaching is only a further effort to make Mary more closely resemble the goddess of paganism, for in the old myths; the goddess was also believed to have had a supernatural conception! The stories varied, but all told of supernatural happenings in connection with her entrance into the world, that she was superior to ordinary mortals, that she was divine.
Little by little, so that the teachings about Mary would not appear inferior to those of the mother goddess, it was necessary to teach that Mary’s entrance into the world involved a supernatural element also!
Is the doctrine that Mary was born without the stain of original sin scriptural? We will answer this in the words of The Catholic Encyclopedia itself: “No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from scripture”. It is pointed out, rather that these ideas were gradual ***development ***within the Church
Cont.Page2
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alexdhanvate
Guest
Right here it should be explained that this is a basic, perhaps the basic, difference between the Roman Catholic approach to Christianity and the general Protestant view. The Roman Catholic Church, as it acknowledges, has long grown and developed around a multitude of traditions and ideas handled down by Church fathers over the centuries, even the beliefs brought over from paganism if they could be “Christianized” and also the Scriptures. Concepts from all these sources have been mixed together and developed, finally to become dogmas at various Church councils. On the other hand, the view which the Protestants Reformation sought to revive was a return to the actual scriptures as a more sound basic for doctrine, with little or no emphasis on the ideas that developed in later centuries.
Going right to the scriptures, not only is any proof for the idea of Immaculate Conception of Mary lacking, there is evidence to the contrary. While she was a chosen vessel of the LORD, was a godly and virtuous woman --a virgin—she was as much a human as any other member of Adam’s family. “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Rom3:23), the only exception being Jesus Christ himself. Like anyone else, Mary needed a Saviour and plainly admitted this when she said: “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR” (Luke 1:47).
If Mary needed a Saviour, then she needed to be Saved, Forgiven and Redeemed as others. The fact is our Lord’s divinity did not depend on his mother being some type of exalted, divine person.
Instead, He was divine because He was the only begotten ***Son of God.***His divinity came from His heavenly Father.
The idea that Mary was superior to other human being was not the teaching of Jesus Christ. Once someone mentioned His mother and brethren. Jesus asked “Who is my mother? And who are my brethren?” Then stretching forth his hand towards His disciples said “Behold my mother and my brethren! For WHOSOEVER shall do the will of my Father which in heaven, the same is my brother and sister and MOTHER” (Mathew12:46-50). Plainly enough, anyone who does the will of God is, in definite sense, on the same level with Mary.
Each day Catholics the world over recites the Hail Mary, the Rosary, the Angelus, the Litanies of the Blessed Virgin and others. Multiplying the number of these prayers, times the number of Catholics who recite them each day, someone has estimated that Mary would have to listen to 46,296petitions a second!
Obviously no one but God himself could do this. Nevertheless, Catholics believe that Mary hears all of these prayers and so of necessity, they have had to exalt her to the divine level –scriptural or not!
Attempting to justify the way Mary has been exalted, some have quoted the words of Gabriel to Mary, “Blessed art thou among woman” (Luke1:28), but Mary being “blessed among women” cannot make her a divine person, for many centuries before this, a similar blessing was pronounced upon Jael, of whom it was said: “blessed above woman shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be ….” (Judges5:24).
Before Pentecost, Mary gathered with the other disciples waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit. We read that the apostles “all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus and His brethren” (Acts1:14). Typical of Catholic ideas concerning Mary, the illustration (as seen in the Official Baltimore Catechism) attempts to give Mary a central position but as all students of the Bible know, that the disciples were not looking to Mary on that occasion. They were looking to their resurrected and ascended CHRIST to outpour on them the gift of Holy Spirit. We also notice in the drawings and in pictures show Mary in the center of the disciples and the Holy Spirit (as a dove) is seen hovering over her! Yet as far as the scriptural account is concerned, the only one person upon whom the spirit as a dove descended was Jesus himself - not His mother!
On the other hand, the pagan virgin goddess under the name of Juno was often represented with dove on her head, as was also Astarte, Cybele and Isis!
Further attempts to glorify Mary may be seen in the Roman Catholic doctrine of perpetual virginity.
Cont.Page3
Going right to the scriptures, not only is any proof for the idea of Immaculate Conception of Mary lacking, there is evidence to the contrary. While she was a chosen vessel of the LORD, was a godly and virtuous woman --a virgin—she was as much a human as any other member of Adam’s family. “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Rom3:23), the only exception being Jesus Christ himself. Like anyone else, Mary needed a Saviour and plainly admitted this when she said: “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR” (Luke 1:47).
If Mary needed a Saviour, then she needed to be Saved, Forgiven and Redeemed as others. The fact is our Lord’s divinity did not depend on his mother being some type of exalted, divine person.
Instead, He was divine because He was the only begotten ***Son of God.***His divinity came from His heavenly Father.
The idea that Mary was superior to other human being was not the teaching of Jesus Christ. Once someone mentioned His mother and brethren. Jesus asked “Who is my mother? And who are my brethren?” Then stretching forth his hand towards His disciples said “Behold my mother and my brethren! For WHOSOEVER shall do the will of my Father which in heaven, the same is my brother and sister and MOTHER” (Mathew12:46-50). Plainly enough, anyone who does the will of God is, in definite sense, on the same level with Mary.
Each day Catholics the world over recites the Hail Mary, the Rosary, the Angelus, the Litanies of the Blessed Virgin and others. Multiplying the number of these prayers, times the number of Catholics who recite them each day, someone has estimated that Mary would have to listen to 46,296petitions a second!
Obviously no one but God himself could do this. Nevertheless, Catholics believe that Mary hears all of these prayers and so of necessity, they have had to exalt her to the divine level –scriptural or not!
Attempting to justify the way Mary has been exalted, some have quoted the words of Gabriel to Mary, “Blessed art thou among woman” (Luke1:28), but Mary being “blessed among women” cannot make her a divine person, for many centuries before this, a similar blessing was pronounced upon Jael, of whom it was said: “blessed above woman shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be ….” (Judges5:24).
Before Pentecost, Mary gathered with the other disciples waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit. We read that the apostles “all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus and His brethren” (Acts1:14). Typical of Catholic ideas concerning Mary, the illustration (as seen in the Official Baltimore Catechism) attempts to give Mary a central position but as all students of the Bible know, that the disciples were not looking to Mary on that occasion. They were looking to their resurrected and ascended CHRIST to outpour on them the gift of Holy Spirit. We also notice in the drawings and in pictures show Mary in the center of the disciples and the Holy Spirit (as a dove) is seen hovering over her! Yet as far as the scriptural account is concerned, the only one person upon whom the spirit as a dove descended was Jesus himself - not His mother!
On the other hand, the pagan virgin goddess under the name of Juno was often represented with dove on her head, as was also Astarte, Cybele and Isis!
Further attempts to glorify Mary may be seen in the Roman Catholic doctrine of perpetual virginity.
Cont.Page3
A
alexdhanvate
Guest
This is the teaching that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life. ***The Encyclopedia Britannica ***explains the doctrine on the perpetual virginity of Mary was not taught until about three hundred years after the ascension of Jesus Christ. It was not until the council of chacedon in 451 that this fabulas quality gained the official recognition of Rome.
According to the scriptures, the birth of Jesus was result of a supernatural conception (Mathew 1:23) without an earthly father, after Jesus was born, Mary gave birth to other children–natural offspring of her union with Joseph her husband. Jesus was Mary’s “first born” son (Mathew1:25) it does not say He was her only child. Jesus being her first born child could certainly infer that later she had second born child, possibly a third-born child etc. That such was the case seems apparent for the names of four brothers are mentioned 1)James, Joseph, Simon and Judas (Mathew13:55). Sisters are also mentioned. The people of Nazareth said: “…. and his sisters are they not all with us?” (Mathew13:56) The word “sisters” is plural, of course so we know that Jesus had at least two sisters and probably more, for this verse speaks of “all” his sisters. Usually if we are referring to only two people we would say “both” of them, not “all” of them.
The implication is that at least three sisters are referred to, if we figure three sisters and four brothers, half brothers and half sisters of Jesus this would make Mary the mother of eight children.
The scripture say “Joseph … “knew her not” ***till ***she had brought forth her first born son: and he called his name “JESUS” (Mathew1:25, Luke 2:7). Joseph “knew her not” until after Jesus was born, but after that, Mary and Joseph did come together as husband and wife and children were born to them.
The idea that Joseph kept Mary as a virgin all of her life is clearly unscriptural.
During the times of the falling away, as though to more closely identify Mary with the mother goddess, some taught that Mary’s body never saw corruption, and she bodily ascended into heaven, and now the ‘queen of heaven’. It was not until this present century; however, the doctrine of the ‘assumption’ of Mary was officially proclaimed as a doctrine of Roman Catholic Church.
It was in 1951 that Pope Pius XII proclaimed that Mary’s body saw no corruption and was taken to heaven.
The words of St. Bernard sum up the Roman Catholic position: “On the third day after Mary’s death, when the apostles gathered around her tomb they found it empty. The sacred body had been carried up to the Celestial Paradise … the grave had no power over one who was immaculate … But it was not enough that Mary should be received into heaven. She was to be no ordinary citizen … she had a dignity beyond the reach even of the highest of the archangels. Mary was to be crowned Queen of Heaven by the eternal Father; she was to have a throne at her Sons right hand … Now day by day, hour by hour, she is praying for us, obtaining graces for us, preserving us from danger, shielding us from temptation, showering down blessings upon us.”
All these ideas about Mary are linked with the belief that she bodily ascended into heaven.
Beloved, The Bible says absolutely nothing about the assumption of Mary.
On the contrary ***John 3:13 ***says “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” – Jesus Christ himself.
He is the one that is at God’s right hand, He is the one that showers down blessings upon us.
Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men. 1Timothy2:5Jesus said “I am The Way, The Truth and The Life.” John 14:6
Jesus said “No one comes to the Father except through Me”. ***John 14:6 ***
“Believe in Lord Jesus Christ and be Saved – you and your household”. Acts 16:31
Jesus said “So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time”. Mark 13:23
God Said “My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge”. Hosea 4:6
Read the Word Of God listen to the His sweet voice.
Jesus Said “My sheep hear my voice, I know them, They follow me, I give then eternal life and no one can snatch them from My hand”. John 10:27
This is the Fantastic Promise Jesus gave us.
Cont.Page4
According to the scriptures, the birth of Jesus was result of a supernatural conception (Mathew 1:23) without an earthly father, after Jesus was born, Mary gave birth to other children–natural offspring of her union with Joseph her husband. Jesus was Mary’s “first born” son (Mathew1:25) it does not say He was her only child. Jesus being her first born child could certainly infer that later she had second born child, possibly a third-born child etc. That such was the case seems apparent for the names of four brothers are mentioned 1)James, Joseph, Simon and Judas (Mathew13:55). Sisters are also mentioned. The people of Nazareth said: “…. and his sisters are they not all with us?” (Mathew13:56) The word “sisters” is plural, of course so we know that Jesus had at least two sisters and probably more, for this verse speaks of “all” his sisters. Usually if we are referring to only two people we would say “both” of them, not “all” of them.
The implication is that at least three sisters are referred to, if we figure three sisters and four brothers, half brothers and half sisters of Jesus this would make Mary the mother of eight children.
The scripture say “Joseph … “knew her not” ***till ***she had brought forth her first born son: and he called his name “JESUS” (Mathew1:25, Luke 2:7). Joseph “knew her not” until after Jesus was born, but after that, Mary and Joseph did come together as husband and wife and children were born to them.
The idea that Joseph kept Mary as a virgin all of her life is clearly unscriptural.
During the times of the falling away, as though to more closely identify Mary with the mother goddess, some taught that Mary’s body never saw corruption, and she bodily ascended into heaven, and now the ‘queen of heaven’. It was not until this present century; however, the doctrine of the ‘assumption’ of Mary was officially proclaimed as a doctrine of Roman Catholic Church.
It was in 1951 that Pope Pius XII proclaimed that Mary’s body saw no corruption and was taken to heaven.
The words of St. Bernard sum up the Roman Catholic position: “On the third day after Mary’s death, when the apostles gathered around her tomb they found it empty. The sacred body had been carried up to the Celestial Paradise … the grave had no power over one who was immaculate … But it was not enough that Mary should be received into heaven. She was to be no ordinary citizen … she had a dignity beyond the reach even of the highest of the archangels. Mary was to be crowned Queen of Heaven by the eternal Father; she was to have a throne at her Sons right hand … Now day by day, hour by hour, she is praying for us, obtaining graces for us, preserving us from danger, shielding us from temptation, showering down blessings upon us.”
All these ideas about Mary are linked with the belief that she bodily ascended into heaven.
Beloved, The Bible says absolutely nothing about the assumption of Mary.
On the contrary ***John 3:13 ***says “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” – Jesus Christ himself.
He is the one that is at God’s right hand, He is the one that showers down blessings upon us.
Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men. 1Timothy2:5Jesus said “I am The Way, The Truth and The Life.” John 14:6
Jesus said “No one comes to the Father except through Me”. ***John 14:6 ***
“Believe in Lord Jesus Christ and be Saved – you and your household”. Acts 16:31
Jesus said “So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time”. Mark 13:23
God Said “My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge”. Hosea 4:6
Read the Word Of God listen to the His sweet voice.
Jesus Said “My sheep hear my voice, I know them, They follow me, I give then eternal life and no one can snatch them from My hand”. John 10:27
This is the Fantastic Promise Jesus gave us.
Cont.Page4
A
alexdhanvate
Guest
Beloved,
***Whatever your cross, whatever your pain,
There will always be sunshine after the rain.
Perhaps you may stumble, perhaps even fall,
But God’s always there to help through it all. ***
“Love and Peace be with you forever”***
Amen !!
God Bless You
In His Mission
Your Bro. In Christ
Alex Dhanvate
Mumbai
I N D I A
***Whatever your cross, whatever your pain,
There will always be sunshine after the rain.
Perhaps you may stumble, perhaps even fall,
But God’s always there to help through it all. ***
“Love and Peace be with you forever”***
Amen !!
God Bless You
In His Mission
Your Bro. In Christ
Alex Dhanvate
Mumbai
I N D I A
L
Lief_Erikson
Guest
And when did the divinity of Jesus gain the official recognition of Rome? 325 AD. This, just like the Marian doctrines, was acknowledged in the Church from the very beginning. The fact that these doctrines were officially recognized hundreds of years later does not mean they weren’t always recognized, believed, and taught to all believers as crucial parts of Sacred Tradition long before.
The perpetual virginity of Mary is first found referenced in a Christian text from 120 AD, the apocryphal Protoevangelium of James. That’s 30 years after Revelation was written, an extremely short time span from the apostolic era. Though the Protoevangelium is not authoritative, of course. But the document, whether reliable or not, does prove that this belief existed in the very earliest days of the Church. Origen, one of the leaders of the Early Church, also supported the perpetual virginity of Mary in the mid third century, which is about 200 years after Christ.
Those are Early Church writings. So are the fourth century ones the Encyclopedia Britannica references.
Also, there’s something important you’re missing here. If we have clear documentation that this belief was being taught in the Early Church 200 years after Christ, and we don’t have documentation for it earlier than that, that does not mean it was not taught before that point in time. We’re talking about events that were occurring two thousand years before modern times. The vast majority of texts that existed back then have disappeared and are outside of our collections.
For example, in the 5th century, I believe, the Byzantine emperor and his wife requested from the Church the bones of Mary to keep as relics. The bishop told them that according to their most ancient traditions, Mary had been Assumed into Heaven.
So we have an explicit reference to this from about 400 years after the event was supposed to take place, but he referenced their most ancient traditions when explaining to the emperor and his wife why they couldn’t grant his request. So we know the belief (unless the man was lying, which is extremely unlikely), was in the Church’s Sacred Tradition from the earliest periods of Church history, if the bishop was truthful.
There is additional evidence that the bishop was truthful, such as the fact that while churches were raised everywhere in honor to apostles, and claimed their relics, no church claimed to have the relics of Mary, despite the fact that she was acknowledged to be Mother of the Church from its earliest days. We have pictures of her face on tombs in the catacombs, showing people were already praying to her for her intercession at the hour of their death, dating from between 100 and 150 AD, and even an image of her on the walls of the catacombs standing between Peter and Paul with (if I recall correctly) her hands over their heads, symbolizing her crucial role as Mother of the Church. So we know that the Marian doctrines existed way back in the Church’s earliest days.
There were big controversies in the Early Church over the nature off Christ, though, so those tended to take precedence as a topic of writing for the Early Fathers.
Agreed.
It doesn’t say that. It says Jesus had brothers and sisters, but doesn’t say whether they came from a previous marriage or not.
Not so, for one’s “firstborn” was an extremely significant role all the time in Israel. The significance of the name is that this child inherits from the father, is the father’s most direct heir, and is the potential future leader of the house. It was a very special role, so they would refer to him as firstborn even if others never came after.
Remember how in Exodus, God killed all the firstborn sons of Egypt? Do you think he killed all the firstborn except for those that had no brothers or sisters, because they weren’t really “firstborn”? That view would make nonsense of God’s Word.
Or Joseph the father of eight children by a previous marriage (if the counting is right), as the Protoevangelium suggests happened.
Saint Jerome has an excellent Scripture based response to this. I’m putting in some bolds and underlines to point out important parts.
Against Helvidius.:
L
Lief_Erikson
Guest
You know another problem with your interpretation, in addition to those I stated above? If these beliefs were a straying from traditional understanding, you would expect to see documentation of a big debate over them in the Church! We know that the Church constantly battled heresies in the first three centuries and endlessly strove to keep its doctrine absolutely identical to that which the apostles had originally handed down to them. If these beliefs about Mary were inconsistent with the teaching the earliest Church Fathers had handed down to them from the apostles, in this contentious environment over the nature of truth, you would find a big debate over it. Instead, you find virtually zero resistance from any Early Church Fathers to the Marian dogmas in the Church. In spite of the fact that many of these same Church Fathers were willing to lay down their lives for their beliefs.
Are you saying Enoch and Elijah were not taken by God up into Heaven? Because those Assumptions are explicitly Scriptural (Mary’s is only implicit). Are you saying John was contradicting Scripture?
John was speaking generally, not rejecting the existence of any exceptions to the general rule.
As for all the scriptures you quoted about Jesus, God and the Word, I absolutely agree with them. Jesus is the Way, and we should listen to Him and to His Word.
And, as the Scripture also says, to Sacred Tradition.
2 Thessalonians 3:6:
Paul was NOT referring here to the “traditions of men,” the Old Testament interpretations of the Pharisees, but rather, he was talking about the traditions of the Early Church Fathers, of whom St. Paul was one.
He did not say “only to the scriptures we hand down to you.” Rather, “to the traditions which you were taught . . . from us.” Which includes that which is given by word of mouth, which is a significant part of the Sacred Tradition of God, the teachings and scripture interpretations of Jesus Christ handed down to us by his apostles and their successors. Praise be to Christ.
L
Lief_Erikson
Guest
My Dear Sister Judi,
Lord said " Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know." Jeremiah 33:3
Perhaps the most outstanding proof that Mary worship developed out of the old worship of the pagan mother goddess may be seen from the fact that in pagan religion, the mother was worshipped as much (or more) than her son! This provides an outstanding clue to help us solve the mystery of Babylon today!
Actually, what you should be looking at is the Old Testament in which the role of Mary as Queen is predicted!
The Old Testament Kingdom of Israel is a type of the Church, the fulfillment of Israel. The role of the Queen Mother was extremely powerful in this kingdom.
See how these passages about the queen in the Old Testament parallel Catholic teaching about our Queen in Heaven:
OLD TESTAMENT QUEENSHIP - MARY PREFIGURED:
Our belief in Mary’s queenship is thoroughly grounded in the Old Testament types of the New Testament. It is in the Bible. Not to mention Revelation 12, which describes the woman who gave birth to Jesus as a resplendent Queen of Heaven.
We believe this woman is both the Church and the literal single woman Mary, as the Early Church Fathers taught in the 4th century, if I’m not mistaken.
Exalting the mother is not the same as worshipping the mother. You should know that. Besides, it is Jesus who exalts His mother. There is a “crown of righteousness” for those that persevere.
That is an incorrect inference you’re making. That is not what we believe.
The Scripture says, “the prayer of the righteous man is powerful and effective.” And Jesus said later on that He could not perform many miracles in His hometown because there was so little faith. The righteousness (and faith is part of being righteous) of the person praying is very important, as the Scripture says. Because that righteousness consists of unity with God.
Mary, we believe, was the most holiest of the saints, so her prayers are consequently the most “powerful and effective.” Her incredible unity with her Son, and God’s preparation of her from conception for that unity, is the reason for her great holiness. So yes, in a real way, He does answer her prayers because she is His mother. That familial relationship is a special bond of unity that they alone share, and unity with God is the source of the righteousness that makes our prayers “powerful and effective.”
Well, think about it logically. The Scripture says that the prayer of the righteous man is powerful and effective. So logically, the prayer of someone who is less righteous is NOT so likely to be so powerful and effective. So if Mary makes the prayer, she, as the most righteous of the saints, is more likely to see it granted than we are.
Which doesn’t mean God loves us less. It’s simply part and parcel of her special unity with God.
Praise God.
We are supposed to pray to Jesus directly and to Jesus through Mary. We are blessed when we practice it.
You are interpreting this Scripture wrongly. Jesus was telling them what they need to do, how they need to follow Him. He had a habit of telling people what they need to know. He was not saying His mother was not given an extraordinary blessing to give Him birth. We do well to acknowledge that blessing.
The Scripture says that when Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, she said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me?”
She acknowledged in this statement the great sanctity of the Holy Virgin. Mary replied, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has looked with favor on the lowliness of His servant. Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed; for the Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is His name.”
She predicted that all generations would call her blessed. If Jesus was contradicting the woman’s claim that Mary was phenomenally blessed, He was sure in for a headache over this!!!
And where do you see that emphasis on breasts in Catholicism? Nowhere. We hail the Holy Virgin as our queen. There is no devotion to the “breasts of our Lady”.
L
Lief_Erikson
Guest
We don’t believe Mary is divine.
Anyway, perhaps you’re not noticing that a virgin birth for a heroic son man-god who would rule the world was often a notable part of these myths
. Sometimes, as in Aztec myths, he would descend into the underworld, giving up his blood for the world and then would rise to save it.Worldwide false religions often have parallels to true Christianity, and definitely not only the Marian parts. God’s truth is eternal and He speaks to everyone, revealing what is to come and what is true worldwide to try to bring people to Himself and prepare them for the coming of His true religion into their assemblies. The devil perverts this truth God gives religious people around the world, and hence the religions around the world, except Catholicism, have elements of error.
This is entirely hypothetical. There is no evidence supporting such an event. The Early Church Fathers described the Immaculate Conception, and the Old Testament predicted it. For the Ark of the Covenant had to be entirely pure, and it was that which contained the manna, the rod of Aaron and the Ten Commandments. Jesus is the Bread of Life, the High Priest and the Word of God. The Ark was what contained the types of Christ, thus it itself was a parallel to Mary.The Ark also is what is described at the very end of Revelation 11 as being unveiled at the moment that the Heavenly Queen who gave birth to Christ was shown. The Ark of the Covenant in God’s Temple was revealed, and then there was the Queen in the beginning of Revelation 12. The Queen, the woman who gave birth to the child (according to Revelation 12) and the Ark are therefore clearly connected. Though that is also clear enough from the Old Testament’s own writings about the Ark.
They were clarified and expounded on with greater precision, as the divinity of Jesus was in the Council of Nicaea, when a Church Council first publicly affirmed it (325 AD), but nothing new was made up. That belief would be contrary to both the Scripture and the existing documents from the writings of the Early Church Fathers.
L
Lief_Erikson
Guest
Don’t have time right now to hit the other post you submitted, alexdhanvate. I’m in a bit of a time crunch now- responsibilities. Maybe later.
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