Can someone please explain to me what exactly a Patriarch is?

[mardukm]

Dear brother Smad,

And the text for Apostolic Canon 34 that I have read do not mention the Patriarchs at all. Once again we may be reading different sources here.

We’re reading the same source. It is true that Apostolic Canon 34 does not mention Patriarchs, but If you’ll notice, it does not mention the Pope either. Apostolic Canon 34 is a GENERAL PRINCIPLE - as the Official Relation of Vatican 1 affirmed, it is a “RULE OF FAITH” - which states that any grouping of bishops must have a recognized head. This general principle applies at the metropolical level, the patriarchal level, and the universal level.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Don,

Is there a practical ramification to the rennunciation of this title?

As the intent of the removal of the title was to promote ecumenical dialogue, IMO the practical ramification is that it will allow more autonomy in areas that are currently only regarded as semi-autonomous in the Catholic Church.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Malphono,

I believe the Armenians use it both ways. Remember that there are 2 Catholicosates: Etchemadzin (sp) in present-day Armenia and Cilicia, now resident in Lebanon.

Yes. The head of the Church in Cilicia is formally a Catholicos. The Supreme head in Armenia is formally the Catholicos-patriarch.

I’m not sure that “autocephalous” is correct here, since it is a Byzantine concept.

Agreed. I should have placed that word in quotation marks when I used it.

In any case, though, a Catholicosate has always held a similar connotation, at least insofar as it functions independently of the Patriarchate. That concept is quite ancient.

Yes. The title of Catholicos was used by Churches who regarded themselves as “autocephalous,” but were not designated as Patriarchates by the Ecumenical Councils. From the Oriental perspective, most of the EO patriarchates today would be deemed catholicosates.

Now, as for the Malankara Orthodox in particular, I believe they still defer to the SOC Patriarch of Antioch for at least one thing: consecration of Holy Myroun.

I have not heard of that. I’ll check into that (if I can remember). You could be right. Are you sure you are not confusing the Syrian Malankara Orthodox with the Malankara Syrian Orthodox?

It’s interesting, too, that the Ethiopians also use the title “Patriarch” yet have no claim to the Ancient Pentarchy.

It is administratively independent of the COC, but very much looks at the Pope of Alexanrdria in the same way that Eastern and Oriental Patriarchates in the Catholic Church looks at the Pope of Rome. For example, if Ethiopia was truly patriarchal in the exact same way that the Coptic Church is patriarchal, then when Eritrea split from Ethiopia politically, the Eritrean hierarchy should have requested autocephaly from the Ethiopian Patriarch. They didn’t - instead, they appealed to the Coptic Pope instead.

I seem to think they used the title even before the formal split from the Copts.

Possible. Seeds for independence were planted in the early 20th century already.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[malphono]

I have not heard of that. I’ll check into that (if I can remember). You could be right. Are you sure you are not confusing the Syrian Malankara Orthodox with the Malankara Syrian Orthodox?

Could be. They’ve quite a confusing mess to sort through and I’ve not the patience to do it.

It is administratively independent of the COC, but very much looks at the Pope of Alexanrdria in the same way that Eastern and Oriental Patriarchates in the Catholic Church looks at the Pope of Rome. For example, if Ethiopia was truly patriarchal in the exact same way that the Coptic Church is patriarchal, then when Eritrea split from Ethiopia politically, the Eritrean hierarchy should have requested autocephaly from the Ethiopian Patriarch. They didn’t - instead, they appealed to the Coptic Pope instead.

Although I don’t recall that the Alexandrian Tradition ever really used the designation, it still sounds quite like a Catholicosate (now two), doesn’t it?

 

[smad0142]

De facto and de jure are two different things, and when speaking of the Catholic hierarchy there is always the caveat that the Pope is supreme.

But if you doubt the fact that on a practical level the Cardinals have more power than the Eastern Catholic Patriarchs, the man in charge of the Congregation of Oriental Churches is a Roman Catholic Cardinal-Bishop.

 

[malphono]

But if you doubt the fact that on a practical level the Cardinals have more power than the Eastern Catholic Patriarchs, the man in charge of the Congregation of Oriental Churches is a Roman Catholic Cardinal-Bishop.

While I will not get involved in a discussion about the so-called Oriental Congregation, (my position on same is already well known in this forum), I will address one technical point. Although he is a bishop, Sandri (the Prefect) is, I believe, actually a Cardinal-Deacon.

 

[smad0142]

I was not addressing his rank in the Cardinalate, which very well may be Cardinal Deacon, but I was highlighting the fact that he is a Cardinal and a Bishop, both of which are de jure below the level of Patriarch. But I suppose that technicall you are correct.

 

[LumenGent]

Smad,

The Cardinalate is a honorific, the Patriachate is not except for the Latin Titular Patriachates.
There are also differences within the Cardinalate beyond the hierarchial Order: Cardinal Bishops, Cardinal Priests and Cardinal Deacons. Cardinals are either Curial or non Curial. The former do not have Ordinary Power other than what is delegated to them form the Pope. It is such Cardinals that head the respective Roman Dicasteries. The non Curial Cardinals do not receive additional powers within their Dioceses. For example, Archbishop Dolan of NY would not gain more power within his Archdiocese once elevated to the Cardinalate, rather he would then enjoy the capacity to vote in a Papal Conclave.

Patriarch’s have the same powers within their Churches that the Pope as Patriarch of the Latins has in the Latin Church. They are true Head Bishops of Apostolic Churches not Diacesteries or Archdiocese.