Can the dead here us?( Ecclesiastes 9:5-6)

[Finex]

As i was having a debate with a JW’s She told me to turn to my bible and read Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.(For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.)
Could anyone help me out with the Catholic understading of this verses? It sounds as if the dead are just erased from existence like the JW’S teach.

 

[Fidelis]

The Book of Ecclesiastes is always used as a proof text by those who don’t believe in a hereafter or to try and disprove the communion of saints. The thing to remember, however, is that the whole point of Ecclesiastes is to show the vanity of this life if there is no eternal reward. Also, it was written before the full reality of heaven was revealed in the New Testament.

In a Catholic Answers article about Seventh-Day Adventists (who share many beliefs of JW’s) here is what the writer has to say about this issue:

A second doctrine which Seventh-day Adventists are likely to challenge Catholics on is the doctrine of the extinction of the soul. Adventists teach that the soul of man is not conscious after death, but that it enters into a kind of sleep when the body dies. When the resurrection occurs, bodies and souls will be revivified. Just people will enter into life everlasting, while the wicked will be punished by fire until they die and cease to exist once again. A corollary to the doctrine of the extinction of the soul is the doctrine that the punishment of hell is not eternal. This doctrine Adventists share with Jehovah’s Witnesses and Herbert W. Armstrong’s Worldwide Church of God.

Paul writes in Philippians 1:23–24, “I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.” He is saying he would prefer to be martyred and be with Christ, but he realizes it is necessary for him to remain alive in order to spread the gospel by his preaching. If the soul “sleeps” (ceases to exists, really) at death, how could it be “better by far” to be martyred rather than continue to have fruitful labor here on Earth?

Adventists are fond of quoting Ecclesiastes 3:19–21 and other Old Testament passages which seem to indicate there is no afterlife. These passages are either written from a human point of view, or they are based on the incomplete revelation the Israelites had concerning the afterlife. It was only when Jesus brought “life and immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Tim. 1:10) that it became clear what the state of the soul is after death.

For the whole article, go here:
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109prot.asp

For a good overview of Ecclesiastes, go here:
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9504otg.asp

Hope that helps.

 

[Todd_Easton]

When Ecclesiastes was written, God had not yet revealed anything of the afterlife to the Isrealites and so, as far as they knew, once you died you ceased to exist. Later, Jesus Christ would reveal a clearer picture of the afterlife in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. Important considers: 1) two states in the afterlife are described, one of comfort and one of torment. 2) the dead rich man’s spirit recognized the spirits of Lazarus and Abraham. 3) Abraham and the rich man communicated with one another. 4) the rich man still loved his living brothers and asked that Abraham send Lazarus to his brothers so that they might not end up in torment like him.

There are at least three ways the dead can hear us: 1) God, who is omnipresent and all-powerful can allow the dead to hear us, as He allowed the spirit of Samuel to hear Saul. (1 Samuel 28:15) 2) Our angel can take a message to the them, as the angel Raphael presented the prayers of Tobit and Sarah before the Glory of the Lord. (Tobit 12:12, also see Revelation 8:3-4.) 3) Through faith, such that, as Jesus says, even distant mountains (inanimate objects) will hear us. (Mark 11:23)

 

[TOME]

I think part of the answer lies in 1 Cor 13 and Paul’s treatise on Love, which Paul hold is the one lasting virtue.

As I see it, if Love is everlasting then our love for others must be perfected so why wouldn’t wouldn’t we “hear” others after we had died?

I think Todd Easton’s post provide some well thought out explanations on how the dead are able to communicate with us.
Building on his work I would like to add that when we say “Hear” it cannot be in the same mode as you or I hear someone speak. After all, until the Resurrection of the Dead and Final Judgement we are living souls seperated from our Resurrected bodies. Therefore, there is no physical capacity for hearing sound.
However, as all spiritual creatures and we have intellect so we can know immediately, indepentantly of the senses. I think God in His wisdom allows the dead to know and communicate with us when it is best thing for the living. This may happen through direct communication between the living and dead (a meeting of the intellects so to speak) or through the other means as outlined by Todd.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Finex:

As i was having a debate with a JW’s She told me to turn to my bible and read Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.(For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.)
Could anyone help me out with the Catholic understading of this verses? It sounds as if the dead are just erased from existence like the JW’S teach.

Ecclesiastes was put together before the Resurrection of Christ. No ? ​

Its account of the dead, is conditional upon nothing happening to change the state of the dead. Since something - the Resurrection - has changed death very radically indeed, that account is now out dated and not fully accurate. Deny that, & we may as well go back to the Law of Moses as described in the books canonised before the Resurrection: Exodus & the the others. To deny that Christ has changed the state of the dead, is inconsistent, if He is admitted to have changed the religious ordinaces of Israel; neither is what it was before His Resurrection. both are changed, vastly.

Besides, anything in heaven or earth can be proved if one goes to one single verse to prove it - we don’t treat any other book in this atomised way: so why do we do it it to the books which make up the Bible ? ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Finex:

As i was having a debate with a JW’s She told me to turn to my bible and read Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.(For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.)

Could anyone help me out with the Catholic understading of this verses? It sounds as if the dead are just erased from existence like the JW’S teach.

Ecclesiastes was put together before the Resurrection of Christ. No ?​

Its account of the dead, is conditional upon nothing happening to change the state of the dead. Since something - the Resurrection - has changed death very radically indeed, that account is now outdated, and not as reliable as it was. Deny that, & we may as well go back to the Law of Moses as described in the books canonised before the Resurrection: Exodus & the others. To deny that Christ has changed the state of the dead, is inconsistent, if He is admitted to have changed the religious ordinances of Israel; neither of them is what it was before His Resurrection; both are changed.

Besides, anything in heaven or earth can be proved if one goes to a verse or two to prove it - we don’t treat any other book in this atomised way: so why do we do it to the books in the Bible ?

• 2 Timothy 1.5 I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lo’is and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you.
• Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands;
• for God did not give us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of power and love and self-control.
• Do not be ashamed then of testifying to our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel in the power of God,
• who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago,
• and now has manifested **through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. **
• For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,
• 2Ti 1:12 and therefore I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me. ##

 

[sirknightron]

I do not with the dead.

I talk with the living, for none are dead that are with God.
Those who die without God are cut off from the living.
Peace be with you.