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NotWorthy
Guest
So, the Holy Spirit can dwell in someone who is not a Christian, eh?
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guanophore
Guest
Remember this passage where Paul was preaching to Pagans:
Acts 17:23-28
What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. 26 From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him — though indeed he is not far from each one of us. 28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said,
‘For we too are his offspring.’
He tells them God has fashioned man for himself, and has placed within us a desire to seek Him. In Him we live, and move and have our being, even if one does not know the Lord, we are still 'his offspring". I think where you might be getting hung up is the quality of dwelling. All people are made in the image and likeness of God, and all are drawn to Him. However, some don’t answer the call. Those that respond to the call, He fills with the HS, and they “abide” in Him to a degee and with a quality that a non-believer cannot. Remember that the scriptures speak of the HS being “upon” people, as well as “rushing over” them. The most intimate descriptor is of our Blessed Mother, who was Full of Grace. I think it is a matter of degree and character/quality of dwelling, not a black and white/all or nothing.
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jean8
Guest
iaq,
1Cor.12:11 "All these are the works of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each as he determines,"the entire teaching should be read from verse 1-12
The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4)
God gives us the choice of coming to him. Rev.3:20, “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him and he with me.”
Isn’t this lovely, God is a Gentleman. Anyone can come to him.
Don’t wait, invite Him into your heart today.
God bless,
jean8
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guanophore
Guest
jean8, your post does not address the question that was asked, and therefore, is considered off topic. Furthermore, you appeared to use your reply as an attempt to proselytize, which is not the purpose of CAF and is a violation of forum rules. You might wish to consider reading these rules before posting.iaq,
1Cor.12:11 "All these are the works of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each as he determines,"the entire teaching should be read from verse 1-12
The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4)
God gives us the choice of coming to him. Rev.3:20, “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him and he with me.”
Isn’t this lovely, God is a Gentleman. Anyone can come to him.
Don’t wait, invite Him into your heart today.
God bless,
jean8
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Safe_Eagle
Guest
Hello NotWorthy,
Let me preface all that I say here as subject to the magesterial teaching of the Catholic church. And to answer your question, yes the catholic church does say the methodist church has valid baptism. As well as, many other christian churches. (One example of a traditions baptism not valid is the Mormons. There hetrodox view of the trinity makes it invalid) But to go on yes, but you must remeber for the most part in America we’re not talking about what we would call “high churches” meaning those with perhaps seven sacraments. We’re talking about, at least in fundys or evangelical beliefs where they only have two sacraments. marriage and baptism. So to further my point yes a child can receive valid baptism in say an evangelical church and be placed in sanctifying grace, now the question is recovery once fallen due to mortal sin. These traditions don’t have sacramental confession. This sacrament was given by Christ to the Apostles. John 20:22-23. The power to forgive and retain. This is the way Christ gave us to recover from mortal sin. And this brings the distinction between mortal and venial sin. Venial sin the God head is not cast out. In Mortal sin it is. Hence mortal/death. Dying in a state of mortal sin for us as Catholics is a ticket to hell. Apart from the grace to have a perfect act of contrition. I surly don’t mean to come across as arrogant. It’s just our belief.
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Let me preface all that I say here as subject to the magesterial teaching of the Catholic church. And to answer your question, yes the catholic church does say the methodist church has valid baptism. As well as, many other christian churches. (One example of a traditions baptism not valid is the Mormons. There hetrodox view of the trinity makes it invalid) But to go on yes, but you must remeber for the most part in America we’re not talking about what we would call “high churches” meaning those with perhaps seven sacraments. We’re talking about, at least in fundys or evangelical beliefs where they only have two sacraments. marriage and baptism. So to further my point yes a child can receive valid baptism in say an evangelical church and be placed in sanctifying grace, now the question is recovery once fallen due to mortal sin. These traditions don’t have sacramental confession. This sacrament was given by Christ to the Apostles. John 20:22-23. The power to forgive and retain. This is the way Christ gave us to recover from mortal sin. And this brings the distinction between mortal and venial sin. Venial sin the God head is not cast out. In Mortal sin it is. Hence mortal/death. Dying in a state of mortal sin for us as Catholics is a ticket to hell. Apart from the grace to have a perfect act of contrition. I surly don’t mean to come across as arrogant. It’s just our belief.
**
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Safe_Eagle
Guest
NotWorthy you bring up a good point. Those that have not heard of Christ or His church can go to heaven. Take for instance the buddist child who doesn’t or has never heard of the way. The church makes a distinction between what she calls vincible and Invincible ignorance. ***God cannot judge someone on something he/she has never heard otherwise God would not be just. So yes, nonchristians can go to heaven. It’s those that have heard the truth and with full knowledge walk away that are in trouble. *
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Safe_Eagle
Guest
I’d like to bring up one more point. For us Catholics we also make a distinction between Natural virtue and supernatural virtue. There are many seemingly good people in the world. Never killed anyone. Profess tolerance. Good to their neighbor etc. Who perhaps have never darkened the door of a church. Perhaps atheistics or profess christianity but make no effort or see no need for devotion. Eastern religions traditions indeed are populated by people who seemingly put us christians to shame. But a religion without Christ cannot save. Why can I say this? Christ said I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me. He also said (peraphrase) I am the door to heaven. He who comes over the gate by another way he himself is both a thief and a robber. So, apart from Invincible ignorance (spoken in my last post) a religion without Christ cannot save.
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rinnie
Guest
I guess what i am trying to say is that in order for the Holy Spirit to dwell in you, you are a Christian, but you dont sometimes really know that you are. I cant explain it the way i am thinking it, im sorry. I just cant seem to find the right words. To me anyone that has good in them, and do good for people, may not really know about Jesus Christ because maybe they were not taught, so never were baptized or anything in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so in our sense of the word Christian, they arent a Christian, but in order to have the gift of the Holy Spirit you are a Christian, you just dont know it. Im sorry i just cant explain what i mean,
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NotWorthy
Guest
I understand your point and agree with complete enthusiasm. But the OP asked if the Holy Spirit can dwell within our soul. After a valid Baptism, as I’ve shown, the Holy Spirit can dwell for at least some time in our soul… well, at least until we kick Him out by committing a mortal sin.Hello NotWorthy,
Let me preface all that I say here as subject to the magesterial teaching of the Catholic church. And to answer your question, yes the catholic church does say the methodist church has valid baptism. As well as, many other christian churches. (One example of a traditions baptism not valid is the Mormons. There hetrodox view of the trinity makes it invalid) But to go on yes, but you must remeber for the most part in America we’re not talking about what we would call “high churches” meaning those with perhaps seven sacraments. We’re talking about, at least in fundys or evangelical beliefs where they only have two sacraments. marriage and baptism. So to further my point yes a child can receive valid baptism in say an evangelical church and be placed in sanctifying grace, now the question is recovery once fallen due to mortal sin. These traditions don’t have sacramental confession. This sacrament was given by Christ to the Apostles. John 20:22-23. The power to forgive and retain. This is the way Christ gave us to recover from mortal sin. And this brings the distinction between mortal and venial sin. Venial sin the God head is not cast out. In Mortal sin it is. Hence mortal/death. Dying in a state of mortal sin for us as Catholics is a ticket to hell. Apart from the grace to have a perfect act of contrition. I surly don’t mean to come across as arrogant. It’s just our belief.
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NotWorthy
Guest
And yet you’ve explained it quite well, thank you! That’s why its called a mystery, my friend!
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BRB
Guest
I would say No.
H.S. can ‘visit’ a non-Christian … but, to dwell [stay] would not be a teaching supported by sacred scriptures.
H.S. can ‘visit’ a non-Christian … but, to dwell [stay] would not be a teaching supported by sacred scriptures.
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