Can the Tridentine mass be celebrated in English?

[FrDavid96]

The Tridentine Mass actually became the English Mass during the 60’s. Need we say it failed?

The Anglican Use Mass is probably the best translation of the Tridentine Mass. However, although approved for Catholics, it is not is line with Vatican II documents which preserve Latin in the liturgy.

I don’t think we can say that it failed. It was never given a chance.

Perhaps if it were “revised” today, it would be a good compromise for having the reverence of the Tridentine Mass combined with the vernacular, which would make it more accessible to people today. Clergy and laity alike would not have to learn the Latin in order for this Mass to be celebrated. And I do think that if it were permitted, there would be a much broader use of the Extraordinary Form.

At the same time, my personal concern is that too many priests would be tempted (and give-in to the temptation) to vary the Mass in different ways. We might have priests re-wording the prayers as they already do in the novus ordo, or we might have priests taking prayers from the novus ordo and inserting them into the traditional form. It’s a sort of “check” on the priests that only those who make the extra effort to learn the Latin are celebrating the EF today, and these same priests are the ones who are the least likely to make illicit changes to begin with. Some priests want to celebrate that form of the Mass, but simply are not able to dedicate enough time to learn it properly–and that’s the unfortunate part.

 

[BernadetteM]

I’m a bit confused - as I understand it. there is/was no difference between the Sarum and Roman on the matter of the Canon - both were identical, except that the Sarum (as the Roman in various countries) added the name of the King to the Te igitur. As it stands, the AU has a translation of the Roman Canon, with the changes in the Institution that parallel EP I of the Missale Romanum.

The English language used is different, just as today the English wording in the US is not the same although the meaning is.

The Last Supper Eucharistic Prayer I

The day before he suffered he took bread in his sacred hands and looking up to heaven, to you, his almighty Father, he gave you thanks and praise. He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples and said: Take this, all of you and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you.

Anglican Use

Who the day before he suffered, took bread into his holy and venerable hands, and with eyes lifted up to heaven unto thee, God, his Almighty Father, giving thanks to thee, he blessed, broke, and gave it to his disiples, saying: Take this, all of you, and eat it: This is my body which will be given up for you.

Sarum Use

Who the day before he suffered, took bread into his holy and venerable hands, and with his eyes lifted up unto heaven, unto thee God, his almighty Father, giving thanks unto thee, he blessed, brake, and gave to his diciples, saying: Take and eat ye all of this. For this is my Body.

I find that the Anglican Use pray above is more similar to the Sarum Use than the Latin Use. Also there are other prayers in the Sarum Use that are used in the Anglican Use liturgy.

It is true that some parts are taken from the BCP, some very Anglican prayers, a few responses from the Latin Mass OF, and those responses are also part of I believe the 1979 BCP, which I think took them from the OF liturgy. When the Catholic Church made the changes the Episopalians and some Lutherans followed suit.

I surely am not an expert is this area, but I went line by line using the Anglican Use liturgy and the Sarum Use and found many similarities. In the Anglican Use they use thee/thou and Holy Ghost. Of couse Rome modified some of the wording in some areas.

To me there are many beautiful liturgies within the Church and although in many places the OF has not been done in a reverent manner, it can be done and it is great.

You can always watch the whole AU liturgy if you want on You Tube or at Our Lady of the Atonement site. It is grainy and unless you know what is being said at times and the actions taken it can be unclear.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[AJV]

The English language used is different, just as today the English wording in the US is not the same although the meaning is.

The Last Supper Eucharistic Prayer I

The day before he suffered he took bread in his sacred hands and looking up to heaven, to you, his almighty Father, he gave you thanks and praise. He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples and said: Take this, all of you and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you.

Anglican Use

Who the day before he suffered, took bread into his holy and venerable hands, and with eyes lifted up to heaven unto thee, God, his Almighty Father, giving thanks to thee, he blessed, broke, and gave it to his disiples, saying: Take this, all of you, and eat it: This is my body which will be given up for you.

Sarum Use

Who the day before he suffered, took bread into his holy and venerable hands, and with his eyes lifted up unto heaven, unto thee God, his almighty Father, giving thanks unto thee, he blessed, brake, and gave to his diciples, saying: Take and eat ye all of this. For this is my Body.

I see what you mean, but at the same time, I wouldn’t say it is like the Sarum. The Sarum Mass was never done in English, only in Latin. The translation you posted is an equally accurate translation of the Missale Romanum.

 

[BernadetteM]

I see what you mean, but at the same time, I wouldn’t say it is like the Sarum. The Sarum Mass was never done in English, only in Latin. The translation you posted is an equally accurate translation of the Missale Romanum.

I used the english translation of the Sarum Use. There are other parts of the Mass that are from the Sarum use, that I don’t believe were in the Missale Romanum. As I said I am not familiar with the different rites used. Also I believe that some of the movements of the priests at the altar are more like the Sarum Use.

Although there are parts from different liturgies in the AU Mass the priests have done a splended job of putting it all together. The one good thing about the AU liturgy is that the priests don’t insert their own words into the liturgy. They follow the rubics.

Most of the Mass is done with the communicants kneeling. There is much bowing and genuflecting also. Of course these were all traditions in the Latin Mass OF, but people don’t follow those traditions anymore. Since I have never been to a TLM/EF liturgy I have no idea what the people do as their participation in the Mass. I did go when I was very young to a TLM, it was low Mass. We have the TLM at our parish, but I really like the OF because the priest faces east and the whole Mass is very reverent.

I do hope, but doubt that my area will ever be allowed the AU Mass due to very liberal Bishops, but pray that God will find a way if it is his will.

I am a convert and do miss so much of what I had as an Anglo Catholic. But no matter what form the Mass is or how it is done belonging to the True Church is the important issue here. Too many Catholics don’t know their faith and leave it for the social and happy stuff in some of the protestant churches. I go to worship God and the social events come second.

God Bless

Bernadette