Can we cross the "moral event horizon" in this life?

[N0X3x]

I mean this in both the positive and negative sense.

positive: Is it possible for a human being to acheive perfection in this life? All men sin and fall short of the glory of God, but this does not mean that nobody eventually reaches a sinless state in this life. The saints apparently skip purgatory altogether, from what I understand. Are they potential examples?

negative: Is it possible for a person to become so corrupted in this life that the person can no longer desire repentance, and is thus be “self-trapped” as the souls in hell are?

 

[Della]

I mean this in both the positive and negative sense.

The short answer is yes.

positive: Is it possible for a human being to acheive perfection in this life? All men sin and fall short of the glory of God, but this does not mean that nobody eventually reaches a sinless state in this life. The saints apparently skip purgatory altogether, from what I understand. Are they potential examples?

Absolutely. Of course they didn’t “earn” this, rather they cooperated to the fullest with God’s grace. We can be infused with saving grace if we will to have it, thus enabling anyone who desires it to have it.

negative: Is it possible for a person to become so corrupted in this life that the person can no longer desire repentance, and is thus be “self-trapped” as the souls in hell are?

Indeed. Jesus told us that he rejects no one who comes to him. A wonderful promise for us all. But there are people, who for one reason or another simply won’t/will not accept his invitation. Jesus termed this the sin against the Holy Spirit. God is always ready to accept our repentance, but we are not always willing to repent through pride, anger, love of worldly pleasures above eternal ones, etc. It’s up to each of us to either say yes, or say no to God. As C. S. Lewis put it, we either say “Thy will be done” or we say “My will be done.”

 

[MiserableSinner]

Excellent response Della! You helped assure me as well. God is using you.

Something to add about the negative:

Pride is what stops people from cooperating with His grace. It also causes God to oppose them.

Humble people will cooperate with His grace, and He gives more grace to the humble.

So someone like Dawkins, for example, is extremely proud. He is so far in the negative that there is nothing he can do. He is trapped. The only way for him to be saved is for someone to plea with God on his behalf that God will have abundant mercy on him and grant him His grace. The problem is he is proud. If God gives him grace to humble himself, will he cooperate? Or does he prefer his pride and intellect to God? If I were to pray all day for Dawkins today and someone else were to sacrifice for him (all of my sufferings in this life have already been offered so I can’t), and God granted him His grace and made him ABLE to humble himself - would Dawkins then be WILLING to humble himself and accept the offer of Salvation from the same God that he blasphemed so regularly? I hope so.

 

[mikekle]

This made me think of that verse where God says, at some point, even prayer will not work anymore, I cannot think of the verse, but I think it had something to do with ‘the incurable wound’.

Does this verse sound familiar to anyone? Im not sure whether God was referring to individual people or nations in this verse though.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

This made me think of that verse where God says, at some point, even prayer will not work anymore, I cannot think of the verse, but I think it had something to do with ‘the incurable wound’.

Does this verse sound familiar to anyone? Im not sure whether God was referring to individual people or nations in this verse though.

I think that was in reference to the souls in Hell, who are beyond our prayers. While someone is still alive, there’s a chance they will open their hearts to God, so our prayers are not wasted.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I mean this in both the positive and negative sense.

positive: Is it possible for a human being to acheive perfection in this life? All men sin and fall short of the glory of God, but this does not mean that nobody eventually reaches a sinless state in this life. The saints apparently skip purgatory altogether, from what I understand. Are they potential examples?

negative: Is it possible for a person to become so corrupted in this life that the person can no longer desire repentance, and is thus be “self-trapped” as the souls in hell are?

You’re going to get different answers.

The first answer is: NO. You quoted Romans perfectly. All men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (except Jesus).
Romans 3:23

Jesus said to be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.
Mathew 5:48

Do you think Jesus REALLY thought we could be perfect? Not from the time of Adam was any man perfect, except Jesus Himself. It was a goal, a target, something to aim for. The Pope goes to confession every week. We sin in actions, in thoughts, in omission. No one can achieve perfection.

The second answer is YES. Because man’s heart can become hard and stop desiring God or maybe God was never desired to begin with.
Seek God While He May Be Found
Isaiah 55:6
A hard heart is a condition that makes one unable to see, to understand God’s purpose, to hear His word. The longer you’re without God, the more difficult it becomes to want to have Him in your life. Many feel they don’t need Him. Pride and selfishness get in the way. However, it’s possible to always come into contact with God. He’s always waiting for everyone.

Saints were not perfect. No man was ever perfect.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

This made me think of that verse where God says, at some point, even prayer will not work anymore, I cannot think of the verse, but I think it had something to do with ‘the incurable wound’.

Does this verse sound familiar to anyone? Im not sure whether God was referring to individual people or nations in this verse though.

You must be thinking of 1 John 5:16-20

16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Fran

 

[Della]

There was one person who was without the stain of original or committed sin, and that person, of course, was Mary. She is the only person who isn’t also divine (her Son) who attained to perfection in this life.

Some others have come close, though. For instance, St. Therese of the Child Jesus never committed a mortal sin. Still, she had love and sympathy for great sinners because as she wrote, our worst sins are but a drop in the ocean of God’s mercy. Poetically put, but true nonetheless. There is no sin too great for God’s mercy. But if we are unwilling to repent of our sin, God will not force his mercy on us.

 

[mikekle]

You must be thinking of 1 John 5:16-20

16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Fran

No, the verse Im talking about has to do with Nahum, Ninevah, having an ‘incurable wound’, meaning at some point, there comes a time when repentance, prayer will not work, and should not even be attempted, I cannot find the exact verse though

 

[frangiuliano115]

No, the verse Im talking about has to do with Nahum, Ninevah, having an ‘incurable wound’, meaning at some point, there comes a time when repentance, prayer will not work, and should not even be attempted, I cannot find the exact verse though

I don’t see prayer in the verse, but it could be implied -
could it be Nahum 3:19?

There is no remedy for the wound - the hierarchy of Assyria has been scattered.

Last chance!

Fran

 

[Latinitas]

I mean this in both the positive and negative sense.

positive: Is it possible for a human being to acheive perfection in this life? All men sin and fall short of the glory of God, but this does not mean that nobody eventually reaches a sinless state in this life. The saints apparently skip purgatory altogether, from what I understand. Are they potential examples?

It is certainly possible to live a life without mortal sin, since God does not command impossibilites. However, as the Council of Trent defined, it is not possible, excepting an very extraordinary grace, which the Church holds in regards to the Blessed Virgin Mary, to live free of all venial sins.

If anyone says that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace,[124] and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or on the contrary, that he can during his whole life avoid all sins, even those that are venial, except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard to the Blessed Virgin, let him be anathema. (emphasis added)

-Council of Trent, Session VI, Canon 23

negative: Is it possible for a person to become so corrupted in this life that the person can no longer desire repentance, and is thus be “self-trapped” as the souls in hell are?

Yes and no. According to the common opinion of theologians, God does grant sufficient grace to all sinners to repent, up until the moment of their deaths. However, there can come a point, when it would take a miracle of grace to make these sufficient graces become efficacious graces, and this God will not always do. St. Alphonsus de Liguori has a very famous homily called “On the Number of Sins Beyond Which God Pardons No More”, which addresses this topic.

I hope this was helpful,
Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[frangiuliano115]

It is certainly possible to live a life without mortal sin, since God does not command impossibilites. However, as the Council of Trent defined, it is not possible, excepting an very extraordinary grace, which the Church holds in regards to the Blessed Virgin Mary, to live free of all venial sins.

Yes and no. According to the common opinion of theologians, God does grant sufficient grace to all sinners to repent, up until the moment of their deaths. However, there can come a point, when it would take a miracle of grace to make these sufficient graces become efficacious graces, and this God will not always do. St. Alphonsus de Liguori has a very famous homily called** “On the Number of Sins Beyond Which God Pardons No More”,** which addresses this topic.

I hope this was helpful,
Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

I’m sorry Latinitas, could I comment on the above sentence?

Could we agree that God can forgive all sin and any amount of sin as long as the person is truly penitent and asks forgiveness and makes a true and honest effort not to repeat that sin. This doesn’t mean that it won’t be repeated.

I’d like to say that it’s not the NUMBER of sins that cause one not to be forgiven anymore but the ATTITUDE of the sinner.

The above makes it sound like God will no longer forgive me at some point, even if I’m sorry I’ve sinned.

I understand it’s something that De Liquori is saying and not you.

Just to clarify for those reading along.

Fran

 

[Latinitas]

I’m sorry Latinitas, could I comment on the above sentence?

Could we agree that God can forgive all sin and any amount of sin as long as the person is truly penitent and asks forgiveness and makes a true and honest effort not to repeat that sin. This doesn’t mean that it won’t be repeated.

I’d like to say that it’s not the NUMBER of sins that cause one not to be forgiven anymore but the ATTITUDE of the sinner.

The above makes it sound like God will no longer forgive me at some point, even if I’m sorry I’ve sinned.

I understand it’s something that De Liquori is saying and not you.

Just to clarify for those reading along.

Fran

Yes, however, we must be careful in our understanding of free will. Our will becomes less free with each sin, as sin builds a habit. Hence, after a certain period of time, although we are free, and God grants sufficient grace for repentence (which is truly sufficient), it would be nothing short of a miracle for it to actually be efficacious. The nature and difference between sufficient and efficacious graces is a deep and much disputed topic in Catholic theology.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[frangiuliano115]

Yes, however, we must be careful in our understanding of free will. Our will becomes less free with each sin, as sin builds a habit. Hence, after a certain period of time, although we are free, and God grants sufficient grace for repentence (which is truly sufficient), it would be nothing short of a miracle for it to actually be efficacious. The nature and difference between sufficient and efficacious graces is a deep and much disputed topic in Catholic theology.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

Interesting. I call this the hardening of the heart.
Which is why I mentioned the attitude of the person.

I’d be really interested in knowing more about the disputed topic of sufficient and efficacious grace. In just a few words. Why? Because I have this theory of mine that we, as catholics, sometimes make concepts too difficult.

Grace is not a simple idea. In fact, books are written on it and I doubt we really understand it. How can we? How can we know God’s mind?

So we break it up into sufficient and efficacious, thus making it complicated. I see grace as being grace. I know what the terms mean, but I dislike that we’ve made this division.

So if it’s disputed (which I don’t know about), it would just be interesting to know why. Not the theology behind it, I know that would take time.

I’d say that God gives grace naturally, it is WE who limit it.

Fran