Can you give me anything on mortal/venial sin besides 1 John?

[Lazerlike42]

I need some stuff to support the distinction between sins other than 1 John 5:16-17.

I also need to show how this verse neither refers to physical death nor to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ignatius]

Lazerlike42:

I need some stuff to support the distinction between sins other than 1 John 5:16-17.

I also need to show how this verse neither refers to physical death nor to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

The fact that it is supported in Scripture should be enough. However, Sacred Tradition from the time of the beginning of The Church also stands witness to the continual practice as handed down by the Apostles.

 

[Lazerlike42]

I have people who won’t accept that verse because of the two other alternatives that I spoke of. I am looking for something else in Scripture to show them.

 

[mercygate]

Lazerlike42:

I need some stuff to support the distinction between sins other than 1 John 5:16-17.

I also need to show how this verse neither refers to physical death nor to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Why do you need more support than this *very *clear passage?

Physical death: Since verse 14 refers to knowing “you have eternal life,” the “mortality” in question would be eternal mortality, not physical death, which none of us will avoid anyway.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit: John says, “committing what is not a mortal sin.” He does not say the mortal sin, which, I presume would be the sin against the Holy Spirit. So this passage indicates that there are other deadly sins which fall short of the sin against the Holy Spirit. The sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven. Mortal sins can be forgiven.

Whoever is giving you grief here isn’t putting up much of a case.

.

 

[Fidelis]

Lazerlike42:

I have people who won’t accept that verse because of the two other alternatives that I spoke of. I am looking for something else in Scripture to show them.

I think you’re being cowed by the people who are challenging you on this. If they can’t accept the plain meaning of this text and have to explain it away with such weak interpretations, it isn’t that you’re not giving them scriptural proof, it’s just that they are simply refusing to accept it. Not much you can do about that except to not falling into the trap of letting them interpret away what they don’t like, and forcing you to scramble after more and more verses.

 

[thessalonian]

This alludes to levels of sin.

11: Jesus answered him, “You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.”

This shows different levels of culpability based on knowledge which is related:

Luke 12
47: And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.
48: But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

There are some in Leviticus but I cant think of them offhand.

Most certainly also the unforigivable sin indicates that there is at least one sin, i.e. blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that is mortal.

Luke 12
10: And every one who speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Hope that helps.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Fidelis:

I think you’re being cowed by the people who are challenging you on this. If they can’t accept the plain meaning of this text and have to explain it away with such weak interpretations, it isn’t that you’re not giving them scriptural proof, it’s just that they are simply refusing to accept it. Not much you can do about that except to not falling into the trap of letting them interpret away what they don’t like, and forcing you to scramble after more and more verses.

No, I’m confident and I know my stuff. The problem is that the faith of a cradle Catholic is at risk. It’s hard to explain the situation exactly, but a couple of her Protestant friends (one is evangelical free, the other calls herself Lutheran but is not by any means Lutheran in her beliefs) have fed her enough anti-Catholic lines that they’ve got her doubting some things, and enough Sola Scriptura stuff that she really doubts things unless they show up in the Bible. Three of us were together today and mortal sins came up. I went right to 1 John, but the “Lutheran” gave a number of objections. Somehow the balance of credibility has gone to the point where my friend accepts what I say with skepticism and what the Protestants say with more authority.

It’s a really troubling situation. It reallly bothers me. It’s not as bad as it could be. For instance, she rejects the EVFree’s claims about OSAS and his antinomianism. That being said, so often this sort of thing is a downward spiral. It’s worse because she’s gotten the religious indifferentism bug. When I speak about things she gets mad at me and says that I think I know everything or I act high and mighty… I try to tell her that I couldn’t care less about being right I just want to get God’s truth out. It’s tough.

Fortunately we are in a Catholic group and she is the President, so she is going to stay Catholic at least through the end of the year. I am going to be doing as many presentations as I can to the group about apologetics. Monday I will be doing the first one, starting with Sola Scriptura. I really feel that it is the single most absurd idea in all of theology and that it can turn her around if she sees the reality of things in that area. It’s the thing that all but singlehandedly brought me to the Church. I really think that SS really, really shows the complete inaneness of Protestantism. I think I’ve got a great talk planned, there are so many points to hit on with it. I really feel if you destroy SS you destroy Protestantism… I think God’s truth can do that Monday…

I do want to give a talk at the beginning trying to point out how we are judging people’s ideas, but not people, and how we have to respect others but we must not be indifferent and can’t put the truth second to worrying about offending people. In other words, both say how important it is to know the truth, but also ease her fears that I am some hate monger or something. Any suggestions?

And please pray for her, and pray for me to help her.

(and for the two Protestants if you get the chance )

 

[Chris_W]

1. You might look at the parable of the Prodigal Son. The son went away lived a rotten life and came back. Upon the return the father says “this son of mine was dead and has come back to life”.

To me this clearly indicates one can be dead in sin (hence the term mortal) and come back and still be forgiven. Yet we know the sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Thus, there must be mortal sin that CAN be forgiven. Therefore there must be more mortal sins than just the sin against the Holy Spirit.

1. When Jesus gave the apostles the ministry of forgiveness, He gave them the power to forgive or retain sins. I think this may indicate the forgiveness of mortal sins as well, for under what circimstances should veniel sins should be retained? Whereas, if mortal sins can be forgiven then it makes sense that the Apostles need to have keen power of discernment in determining which sins are to be forgiven or retained, thus Jesus gives them the Holy Spirit to guide them

Also, if the only sin to be retained would be the sin against the Holy Spirit, then it makes the commissioning of the Apostles here (John 20, 22-23) pretty cosmetic, for it is cut and dry which sins can be forgiven and which cannot.

Okay so number 2 is a weaker argument, but hey, I’m trying

As far as whether or not it refers to physical death, I would point to Romans and the story of the vine dresser. We become branches on the vine through Baptism, not natural birth. Otherwise the story makes no sense. It is through our spiriual birth that we become members of the Mystical Body of Christ (the Vine). When the branch is removed from the vine, it therefore stands to reason this is spiritual death, not physical death. Mortal sin removes us from the life giving sap. Thus mortal sin is described in an easy to understand way.

Good Luck,
Chris W

 

[Fidelis]

Lazerlike42:

No, I’m confident and I know my stuff. The problem is that the faith of a cradle Catholic is at risk. It’s hard to explain the situation exactly, but a couple of her Protestant friends (one is evangelical free, the other calls herself Lutheran but is not by any means Lutheran in her beliefs) have fed her enough anti-Catholic lines that they’ve got her doubting some things, and enough Sola Scriptura stuff that she really doubts things unless they show up in the Bible…

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I’m sure you’ll get more helpful answers now that people have some background.