Capitalism and Protestants

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I think there is also a connection between Protestantism and Representative Government.

Catholicism lived very comfortably along side monarchies. I think it is very possible that if there were no Reformation the West would still be governed by kings and queens.
 
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Angainor:
I think there is also a connection between Protestantism and Representative Government.

Catholicism lived very comfortably along side monarchies. I think it is very possible that if there were no Reformation the West would still be governed by kings and queens.
Actually I wouldn’t go so far as to say that… Our republic in the USA is stylized after the Roman republic before Julius Caesar overthrew the republic. Without protestants though, there definitely would not be a Republic in America today.
 
Hi Angainor,

The nation that pioneered representatived government, Great Britain, is still governed by a Monarch.

Verbum
 
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Angainor:
I think there is also a connection between Protestantism and Representative Government.

Catholicism lived very comfortably along side monarchies. I think it is very possible that if there were no Reformation the West would still be governed by kings and queens.
I disagree maybe your Martin Luther was not fan of monarchies but his politics would have surely been scorned in todays world…Luther initially preached tolerance towards the Jewish people, convinced that the reason they had never converted to Christianity was that they were discriminated against, or had never heard the Gospel of Christ. However, after his overtures to Jews failed to convince Jewish people to adopt Christianity, he began preaching that the Jews were set in evil, anti-Christian ways, and needed to be expelled from German politics. In his* On the Jews and Their Lies*, he repeatedly quotes the words of Jesus in Matthew 12:34, where Jesus called them “a brood of vipers and children of the devil”

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/martin-luther.html

The Nazis used Luther’s anti-semetic declarations to promote their anti-semetic theories. In this manner, some of Luther’s words, such as “that one burns their synagogues…” helped to justify Nazi actions against the Jews.

The ideologists in the German Democratic Republic (East Germany) tried to stamp Luther as a vacillator who had ideas for reform, but who in the end associated with the rulers. In contrast to Luther, the GDR portrayed Thomas Muenzer as a hero for acting against powerful rulers.

http://www.luther.de/en/verthero.html

Anti-semites have no place in a Capitalist society. The American Republic is modeled after the Roman Republic…and so is the Vatican. So I have to disagree with this thread.
 
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Verbum:
Hi Angainor,

The nation that pioneered representatived government, Great Britain, is still governed by a Monarch.

Verbum
Church of England
 
Deus Vult:
I disagree maybe your Martin Luther was not fan of monarchies but his politics would have surely been scorned in todays world…Luther initially preached tolerance towards the Jewish people, convinced that the reason they had never converted to Christianity was that they were discriminated against, or had never heard the Gospel of Christ. However, after his overtures to Jews failed to convince Jewish people to adopt Christianity, he began preaching that the Jews were set in evil, anti-Christian ways, and needed to be expelled from German politics. In his* On the Jews and Their Lies*, he repeatedly quotes the words of Jesus in Matthew 12:34, where Jesus called them “a brood of vipers and children of the devil”

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/martin-luther.html

The Nazis used Luther’s anti-semetic declarations to promote their anti-semetic theories. In this manner, some of Luther’s words, such as “that one burns their synagogues…” helped to justify Nazi actions against the Jews.

The ideologists in the German Democratic Republic (East Germany) tried to stamp Luther as a vacillator who had ideas for reform, but who in the end associated with the rulers. In contrast to Luther, the GDR portrayed Thomas Muenzer as a hero for acting against powerful rulers.

http://www.luther.de/en/verthero.html

Anti-semites have no place in a Capitalist society. The American Republic is modeled after the Roman Republic…and so is the Vatican. So I have to disagree with this thread.
If I was a follower of Luther this might be a real problem. I am “Lutheran”. This does not mean that Luther’s word is law. Luther possesed no special authority.

I follow Jesus Christ, so whatever Luther’s personal failings were, I am free to follow the real truth.
 
Semper Fi:
Actually I wouldn’t go so far as to say that… Our republic in the USA is stylized after the Roman republic before Julius Caesar overthrew the republic. Without protestants though, there definitely would not be a Republic in America today.
Yes ancient Rome invented a Republic, but Republican aspirations don’t seem to appear at all while the West was solidly Catholic.

Protestantism is a do-it-yourself religion, where the people are responsible for their own beliefs. It is no wonder to me that this would open minds up to do-it-yourself government. The effect was almost immediate. One of the first results of the Reformation was a peasant’s revolt. It was brutally supressed.
 
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Angainor:
If I was a follower of Luther this might be a real problem. I am “Lutheran”. This does not mean that Luther’s word is law. Luther possesed no special authority.

I follow Jesus Christ, so whatever Luther’s personal failings were, I am free to follow the real truth.
What??? So the fact that your religion is named after the man has nothing to do with the man? Somehow I think the greater body of your synod would disagree. Your whole religion is based on this man’s interpretation of scripture so I do not see how you can ignore his beliefs.
 
Deus Vult:
What??? So the fact that your religion is named after the man has nothing to do with the man?
That’s right.
Deus Vult:
Somehow I think the greater body of your synod would disagree. Your whole religion is based on this man’s interpretation of scripture so I do not see how you can ignore his beliefs.
Your shock doesn’t surprise me. It would be natural for a Catholic to have difficulty separating the man from the truths he tought.

We do not base our religion on Luther’s interpretation of scripture because we trust the authority of whatever came out of his mouth. We base our religion on Luther’s interpretation of scripture because we agree with that interpretation. I am free to ignore any horrible personal opinions he may have had of the Jews.
 
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Angainor:
I follow Jesus Christ, so whatever Luther’s personal failings were, I am free to follow the real truth.
Keep doing that, and you’ll end up Catholic.😃
 
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Angainor:
That’s right.Your shock doesn’t surprise me. It would be natural for a Catholic to have difficulty separating the man from the truths he tought.

We do not base our religion on Luther’s interpretation of scripture because we trust the authority of whatever came out of his mouth. We base our religion on Luther’s interpretation of scripture because we agree with that interpretation. I am free to ignore any horrible personal opinions he may have had of the Jews.
And what “truths” are those…Martin Luther not only had a false interpretation of scriprture but even went as far as ommiting from scripture that which disagreed with his false teaching. Including the book of James which of course goes entirely against his “faith alone” apostasy…24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. James 2:24 NIV
 
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Angainor:
I think there is also a connection between Protestantism and Representative Government.

Catholicism lived very comfortably along side monarchies.

If the penalty for resistance to a strong monarchy is an interesting, elaborate, and extremely painful quietus, quite possibly 🙂

As it happens, friction between the two principal organs of of “Christendom” - “Church” & “State” - was frequent, and frequently violent: as when the Popes clashed with the Hohenstaufen, and pulled out all the stops to destroy them; or when Philip the Fair threw a bishop into prison - by way of going one better, Louis XI imprisoned the cardinal who had suggested the king might like to cage his prisoners, in a cage: poetic justice indeed

As is to be expected, human nature being what it is, folk in the USA don’t know how lucky they are to live in a state which separates Church from state: it can hardly be said that this separation has resulted in universal heathenism in the USA, or that clergy have absolutely no influence on public life; no Archbishop in the UK has the authority or commands the respect that bishops in the US seem to - bishops here, are ridiculed or ignored. USA Christians don’t when they are on to a good thing - let them make the most of it !

Catholicism didn’t get on well with regimes - royal or otherwise - that tried doing her thing without consulting her: she’s monopolistic, so she invariably raises Hell when other rulers, however pious or wise or upright, take it into their heads to manage their subjects or their citizens without letting Rome do so. Autocracy is fine - as long as it is of the Church’s choosing or is otherwise not superior to her. She is best understood as just another state that fears losing power - this is very largely her own fault, because she has debased herself into being this-worldly: therefore, she can be judged as though she were meant to be purely this-worldly. She is basically the last of the autocracies in Europe; and the rest have fallen. ##
I think it is very possible that if there were no Reformation the West would still be governed by kings and queens.

Representative polities of various sorts predate the Reformation: what do people imagine the city of Florence was before the Medici ?​

Trust folk in the USA to go dewy-eyed over monarchy 🙂 Monarchy is all very well: but not the absolute type, thank you very much. 🙂 ##
 
Deus Vult:
And what “truths” are those…Martin Luther not only had a false interpretation of scriprture but even went as far as ommiting from scripture that which disagreed with his false teaching. Including the book of James which of course goes entirely against his “faith alone” apostasy…24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. James 2:24 NIV

This is a very tired libel 😦

 
Gottle of Geer said:
## This is a very tired libel 😦 ##

Maybe you are just tired of the truth? What exactly do you mean? If I have mis-stated something please feel free to correct me.
 
Hello GoG,

What is “Romish Papist Catholic :)”?
Gottle of Geer:
As is to be expected, human nature being what it is, folk in the USA don’t know how lucky they are to live in a state which separates Church from state
I, for one, know separation is great, if you mean the historical definition of “separation” and not the ACLU definition.
Gottle of Geer:
Autocracy is fine - as long as it is of the Church’s choosing or is otherwise not superior to her.
This is kind of the point I was getting at. Cathoicism was comfortable when bishops crowned kings and when kings were said to rule with divine authority (channeled through Rome of course).
 
Deus Vult:
What??? So the fact that your religion is named after the man has nothing to do with the man? Somehow I think the greater body of your synod would disagree. Your whole religion is based on this man’s interpretation of scripture so I do not see how you can ignore his beliefs.
Lutherans would desribe themselves as “evangelicals.” Lutheran is, like most such names, a slur that stuck. It’s trite and silly to go after Lutherans for this. Deal with their actual teachings as found in their Confessions, or leave them alone. Ad hominem attacks on Luther are cheap shots and I’m more and more inclining to the view that they should be treated as beneath contempt, as should equally silly tactics when used against Catholics.

Lutherans follow Luther because they think he had some good insights. You can find out what those insights are by reading the Augsburg Confession, the Schmalkald Articles, the Formula of Concord, etc. Luther’s opinions and foibles that were not accepted in the Lutheran Confessions are interesting but not really relevant (at least for discussing Lutheranism–Luther of course had an impact that went beyond Lutheranism).

Why the dislike for discussing actual issues?

Edwin
 
Deus Vult:
I disagree maybe your Martin Luther was not fan of monarchies but his politics would have surely been scorned in todays world
Luther was a big supporter of monarchies. The Calvinists had a big influence on the development of representative government. Lutheranism, as far as I can tell, did not.

And as for Luther being anti-semitic–I will take this charge seriously when you can show me that he was any more anti-semitic than Catholics of his day. I have made this challenge before and so far it has never been answered. People simply avoid it.

Edwin
 
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Angainor:
I think there is also a connection between Protestantism and Representative Government.
Calvinism of a dogmatically presbyterian sort, yes. Not particularly Lutheranism or Anglicanism, as far as I can see, both of which staunchly supported absolute monarchies just as much as post-Reformation Catholicism did.

Actually I think in some ways the Reformation set things back (or moved them forward, if you want to see absolute monarchy as a necessary stage in between “feudal” monarchy and modern democracy–I’m not sure I buy that). With the division of Western Christendom, the different churches had to “bid” for the support of the State, and this weakened the Church’s ability to stand up to the state (radical Calvinists being the main exception, but then they had limited success taking over governments–Scotland, the Netherlands, parts of Switzerland, and England for ten years, and that’s about it; Calvinism did find favor with many German rulers, but I don’t believe it was a kind of Calvinism that focused on issues of polity).

Catholicism was nowhere near as comfortable with absolute monarchies before the Reformation as afterwards. (Read Quentin Skinner’s _Foundations of Modern Political Thought, vol. 2, for a description of the change that took place in the later sixteenth century. He shows it to be far more complex than I’m describing it here, but my theory is largely derived from the evidence he presents.) The Church had to make an alliance (or at least thought it had to) with strong Catholic monarchies in order to fight Protestantism. Catholicism became the enabler of absolute monarchy largely because of the Reformation, in my view. For much of the Middle Ages the Catholic Church was a thorn in the side of efforts to build an absolute, sacralized monarchy. (Gottle of Geer has pointed this out already.)

Edwin
 
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