Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

[otm]

katolik:

SO waht was the aim of the Liturgical Movement?
Jesuits preparing for more blasphemy as is today? It started with using Latin in the confessional to insult the priest but now what do the Jesuits do at “liturgy”[not Mass]

I am not exactly sure what you are referring to when you use the word “blasphemy”. Perhaps you could give examples?

I also am puzzeled by your references to the Jesuits, as the liturgical reform was more the work of the Benedictines.

As to what the aim of the liturgical movement was, it was greater lay participation.

As anyone who has engaged in a conversation with someone else in another language through the use of an interpreter has experienced, there is a great difference between that cumbersome process and speaking with the individual directly. The translator is used because the parties each speak a different language. When they speak a common language, they are more directly engaged.

 

[Exporter]

Katherine2 wrote,"

Quote:
It used to be a thing of Pride to walk to Mass in your Sunday Suit and garb, with your missal in one hand, as my mother and father did.

Of course, with your grandparents, the Missal was denied to the laity by the conservatives.

---

Katherine2, you think the St. Joseph’s Daily Missal was not allowed to your grandparents? I say you are wrong or do you come from a place like Russia.

We all used the St. Joseph’s Missal back in the '40s and '50s . I have one right next to me. It was printed in 1950.

 

[katherine2]

Exporter:

Katherine2, you think the St. Joseph’s Daily Missal was not allowed to your grandparents? I say you are wrong or do you come from a place like Russia.

We all used the St. Joseph’s Missal back in the '40s and '50s . I have one right next to me. It was printed in 1950.

You are full of beans. In the 1950’s my grandparents were in heaven with Jesus and Mary. The reason you had the legalized Missal by the 1940’s was because the Liturgical Movement got the ban overturned. if you love your Missal, hug a liberal.

 

[katolik]

Mrs. Katherine once mentioned how fun it was when some of her Jesuit friends, would go to conservative priests and confess their sins in Latin, just to prove their point.

I know what you mean. I have translated much for my family from ENglish into Polish…

Was it really needed, for more lay participation, to eliminate 70% of the Traditional Latin Mass and change the readings? TO introduce the vernacular to be the only language of Mass?

otm:

I am not exactly sure what you are referring to when you use the word “blasphemy”. Perhaps you could give examples?

I also am puzzeled by your references to the Jesuits, as the liturgical reform was more the work of the Benedictines.

As to what the aim of the liturgical movement was, it was greater lay participation.

As anyone who has engaged in a conversation with someone else in another language through the use of an interpreter has experienced, there is a great difference between that cumbersome process and speaking with the individual directly. The translator is used because the parties each speak a different language. When they speak a common language, they are more directly engaged.

 

[katolik]

katherine2:

You are full of beans. In the 1950’s my grandparents were in heaven with Jesus and Mary. The reason you had the legalized Missal by the 1940’s was because the Liturgical Movement got the ban overturned. if you love your Missal, hug a liberal.

Woman,
There are plenty of pre1940’s missals out there with imprimaturs and nihil obstats. Sheesh, how many times do you have to repeat your wrong facts?

 

[katolik]

katherine2:

if I’m going to look up quotes from sspx, I much perfer these:

Bishop Williamson :

“there was not one Jew killed in the gas chambers. It was all lies, lies, lies. The Jews created the Holocaust so we would prostrate ourselves on our knees before them and approve of their new State of Israel… Jews made up the Holocaust, Protestants get their orders from the devil, and the Vatican has sold its soul to liberalism.”.

In the Letter to Friends and Benefactors of the SSPX’s St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary in Winona USA., of May 2000, Williamson wrote:"God puts in men’s hands the “Protocols of the Sages of Sion” and the “Rakovsky Interview”, if men want to know the truth, but few do.

I don’t believe what Bp.Williamson is saying is true. But this is less scary than your average novus ordo parish homily at churches here.

 

[otm]

Exporter:

Katherine2 wrote,"

Quote:
It used to be a thing of Pride to walk to Mass in your Sunday Suit and garb, with your missal in one hand, as my mother and father did.

Of course, with your grandparents, the Missal was denied to the laity by the conservatives.

---

Katherine2, you think the St. Joseph’s Daily Missal was not allowed to your grandparents? I say you are wrong or do you come from a place like Russia.

We all used the St. Joseph’s Missal back in the '40s and '50s . I have one right next to me. It was printed in 1950.

Perhaps it is the term ‘grandparents"? Mine died in the 70s, and were born in the 1800s. No, they did not have the missal, or misallette; it was introduced in my parents’ lifetime (born between 1910-20).

 

[otm]

katolik:

Mrs. Katherine once mentioned how fun it was when some of her Jesuit friends, would go to conservative priests and confess their sins in Latin, just to prove their point.

I know what you mean. I have translated much for my family from ENglish into Polish…

Was it really needed, for more lay participation, to eliminate 70% of the Traditional Latin Mass and change the readings? TO introduce the vernacular to be the only language of Mass?

I really believe so. I am old enought to remember how many people simply came to Mass and stared off into space, or brought a pamphlet and said a devotion to Joseph, or Mary, or whoever; or said the Rosary during Mass. Mass was something that was done to them, not something that they participated in. Missals were something you had to go buy, and then remember to bring to Mass with you. Given not always adequate accoustics (it was hard to hear what the priest was saying half the distance back from the front pew, let alone in the back - remember, priests didn’t have microphones at the altar, and faced away from the congregation), it was easy to lose track of where he was except by observing an action - hard to do if you are reading the missal - and almost no one knew that much Latin.

I disagree that 70% of the TLM was done away with. In fact, we have more, not less as we have introduced the Old Testament readings and tied them to the Gospels. Some of the prayers have been expanded to include alternatives (e.g. the Eucharistic Prayers), and the last Gospel was eliminated. Most of the changes were not through elimination.

Providing it in the native language allows people to follow along with the priest without having to read while hearing (and not understanding) what the priest is saying in a foreign language. They may read as they listen, if that works best, or simply listen and pray along.

I have attended Mass in Spanish, and find it as cumbersome to follow along as Latin was when I attended that.

Your comment about changing the readings (I assume you mean epistles and Gospels) has expanded the material we cover in a three year cycle. What could be the objection to that?

 

[katolik]

otm:

I really believe so. I am old enought to remember how many people simply came to Mass and stared off into space, or brought a pamphlet and said a devotion to Joseph, or Mary, or whoever; or said the Rosary during Mass. Mass was something that was done to them, not something that they participated in. Missals were something you had to go buy, and then remember to bring to Mass with you. Given not always adequate accoustics (it was hard to hear what the priest was saying half the distance back from the front pew, let alone in the back - remember, priests didn’t have microphones at the altar, and faced away from the congregation), it was easy to lose track of where he was except by observing an action - hard to do if you are reading the missal - and almost no one knew that much Latin.

I disagree that 70% of the TLM was done away with. In fact, we have more, not less as we have introduced the Old Testament readings and tied them to the Gospels. Some of the prayers have been expanded to include alternatives (e.g. the Eucharistic Prayers), and the last Gospel was eliminated. Most of the changes were not through elimination.

Providing it in the native language allows people to follow along with the priest without having to read while hearing (and not understanding) what the priest is saying in a foreign language. They may read as they listen, if that works best, or simply listen and pray along.

I have attended Mass in Spanish, and find it as cumbersome to follow along as Latin was when I attended that.

Your comment about changing the readings (I assume you mean epistles and Gospels) has expanded the material we cover in a three year cycle. What could be the objection to that?

Objection to new readings:
It is against the tradition of the Roman Rite and is unprecedented in nonProtestant liturgies. The Eastern Liturgies also have the same arrangement for readings[Epistle and Gospel[ as the Traditional Latin Mass.
I attend a weekly TLM so I know what you’re talking about, some what. Low Masses were intended for individual Masses by monks in their cells, but they became the norm in some places. The truest form of the TLM is the Solemn High Mass, but this was rarely done.

A comment on unactive participation in the New Mass. Before I became a Traditionalist, I went to a Polish NO parish for all Masses. To tell you the truth,the horribleness of TLM past I experienced there at the New Mass. TO tell you the truth you do participate more in a Sung TLM than a normal Sunday New Mass.

Well perhaps the Catholics should learn Latin. I have read that my Polish ancestors[that is all Polish people in general] spoke Latin as well as Polish in the 17th century.Foreign visitors were amazed by this. It is possible for Latin to be learnt by all.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

smn:

Actually, the sign of peace (“Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum”) occurs in the TLM at the same time at it does in the Novus Ordo. It’s not visibly extended to the laity, but the ministers do embrace each other at a Solemn Mass.

Scott

Thanks, Scott, for reminding me of the TLM placement, but the problem I have is not necessarily the short verbal exchange but the physical exchange among congregants that is often so distracting from the Presence of Christ on the altar. You should come to Notre Dame (sp. Zahm Hall) and see a 5-minute sign of peace in which the pews empty into the aisles and the noise level skyrockets - bad enough anytime in the Mass, but especially so at that point.

 

[Munda_cor_meum]

katherine2:

if I’m going to look up quotes from sspx, I much perfer these:

Bishop Williamson :

“there was not one Jew killed in the gas chambers. It was all lies, lies, lies. The Jews created the Holocaust so we would prostrate ourselves on our knees before them and approve of their new State of Israel… Jews made up the Holocaust, Protestants get their orders from the devil, and the Vatican has sold its soul to liberalism.”.

In the Letter to Friends and Benefactors of the SSPX’s St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary in Winona USA., of May 2000, Williamson wrote:“God puts in men’s hands the “Protocols of the Sages of Sion” and the “Rakovsky Interview”, if men want to know the truth, but few do.”

Could you please provide a link or some other documentation that shows the full context of the quotes you attribute to Bishop Williamson? Thanks.

 

[kmktexas]

I have attended Mass in Spanish, and find it as cumbersome to follow along as Latin was when I attended that.

otm,

I have to respectfully disagree. I have been in Venezuela for the last few months and speak almost no Spanish. I have no trouble following along with the Mass. I wish I could say it was because of my 40+ years of Catholicism and regular Mass attendance but I am a recent revert after more than 20 years “away”. I can’t participate as much as I am used to and I don’t know any of the songs (no hymnals here, everyone seems to know the words). However, all of the parts are the same. My priest back home let me bring one of the Spanish missalettes from our church and I try to say the main prayers and responses. If I can’t, I just say them quietly in English. Of course I don’t get the readings or homily at all so I read the readings at home and look for one of the homilies (like on EWTN or CatholicExchange) or meditations to read. In the Latin Mass, that problem doesn’t exist since the readings are repeated in English and the homily is in English (or whatever is the local vernacular).

One of the benefits stated in the VII documents of retaining Latin was so that all Catholilcs could understand and participate in the main prayers (Gloria, Pater Noster, Credo etc.) no matter where they were in the world. This is one of my pet peeves with the “spirit of VII” proponents. They should be encouraging MORE use of Latin in the Pauline Mass instead of sreaming that it is a “throwback”.

BTW, I have attended the TLM and have mixed feelings. The Mass of my childhood was primarily the Mass from the Missal of 1965. It is mostly in Latin with VII revisions and much more participatory than even the diologue TLM. I understand that the Church leaders at the time didn’t care for that version and it was short lived but I don’t really understand why.

I can’t wait for Lent, though, because our pastor uses the Latin prayers in the Pauline Mass during Lent each year (Kyrie in Greek, Agnus Dei, the Memorial Acclamation etc). Since I can’t really wish for the 1965 Missal Mass, I will just pray for a wider use of Latin in the Pauline Mass. We have one Sunday Mass in our diocese which is the Latin Pauline Mass and one Anglican Use Mass in Latin during the week. Not enough.

 

[Theodred]

For what its worth, a client of mine who deals in rare books says she once sold a French/Latin missal that dated to the 1820s for over $300 to a collector.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

katherine2:

In 1884, Father Anselm Schott was disciplined by the Holy Office for daring to pubish a German-Latin Missal, invoking an earlier decree of October 25, 1849. Nevertheless, that was the begining of the end, as the political situation in Germany made it impossible to make the order effective. Soon, the popular demand made these missals widespread and gradually the Holy See gave in.

Do you have any sources where I can read about this? While I’m inclined to trust you, and in fact don’t find my '62 Missal sensibilities threatened by the truth of this, I’d be interested to know the history surrounding the event. Given Theodred’s last post about an 1820s French missal and especially given that German has been the seed-bed of heresy and dissent since time immemorial (I know quite well, as my majors are German and Theology), I’d be interested to see if the Holy Office mandate were specifically in regards to Germany or if it were Church-wide.

 

[katherine2]

Andreas Hofer:

Do you have any sources where I can read about this? While I’m inclined to trust you, and in fact don’t find my '62 Missal sensibilities threatened by the truth of this, I’d be interested to know the history surrounding the event. Given Theodred’s last post about an 1820s French missal and especially given that German has been the seed-bed of heresy and dissent since time immemorial (I know quite well, as my majors are German and Theology), I’d be interested to see if the Holy Office mandate were specifically in regards to Germany or if it were Church-wide.

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