R
- Status
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
Dear Friends,
My two cents’ worth on a fascinating subject.
“Blessed” can mean three things in the Orthodox East - someone who is privately honoured as a “Venerable” is in the West; someone who is a saint but whose sanctity was hidden during their lives and was revealed by others after their death; and someone who is a saint, but whose teachings the Orthodox Church has some reservations about such as “Blessed Augustine,” “Blessed Theodoret of Cyrrhus” and “Blessed Jerome.”
The Ukrainian Catholic Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky petitioned Rome to allow the Russian Greek-Catholics at the time to venerate all their Orthodox saints and this was granted.
As a rule, when an Eastern Christian community comes into union with Rome, all of their Orthodox saints continue to be venerated (e.g. Sts. Vladimir and Olha, Boris and Hlib - known as Roman and David in the Latin calendar - and Sts Anthony and Theodosius of Kyiv).
St Sergius of Radonezh is an Orthodox saint who, along with St Seraphim of Sarov and St Gregory Palamas, were acknowledged as saints by Rome.
Alex
My two cents’ worth on a fascinating subject.
“Blessed” can mean three things in the Orthodox East - someone who is privately honoured as a “Venerable” is in the West; someone who is a saint but whose sanctity was hidden during their lives and was revealed by others after their death; and someone who is a saint, but whose teachings the Orthodox Church has some reservations about such as “Blessed Augustine,” “Blessed Theodoret of Cyrrhus” and “Blessed Jerome.”
The Ukrainian Catholic Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky petitioned Rome to allow the Russian Greek-Catholics at the time to venerate all their Orthodox saints and this was granted.
As a rule, when an Eastern Christian community comes into union with Rome, all of their Orthodox saints continue to be venerated (e.g. Sts. Vladimir and Olha, Boris and Hlib - known as Roman and David in the Latin calendar - and Sts Anthony and Theodosius of Kyiv).
St Sergius of Radonezh is an Orthodox saint who, along with St Seraphim of Sarov and St Gregory Palamas, were acknowledged as saints by Rome.
Alex
S
Seamus_L
Guest
And how does one come to the conclusion that Saints from the East are ignored by the Roman Catholic Church ? Search Engines will quickly tell you that we have Latin Rite churches dedicated to all those Eastern Saints plus some that weren’t mentioned. In addition, you can pick up a copy of Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals Of Catholic Dogma and see how heavily the Church has relied on Eastern theologians in formulating it’s doctrines.
C
Cecilianus
Guest
It’s more a question of saints who lived after the 1054 schism, which is a bit of a sticky situation since they were materially in schism, and some (such as St. Gregory Palamas and St. Alexander Nevsky, both of whom are venerated by Catholics at least in my parish) opposed union with Rome. There are only a couple post-1054 Orthodox saints - St. Sergius of Radonezh and another Russian St. Sergius - that I know were canonized by Rome the same way Western saints were canonized; the others were simply left on the calendar. (Also, some Italo-Greek saints who practiced communion with and obedience to the Pope of Rome - such as St. Bartholomew of Simeri - are usually regarded just as local saints.) The influence of the Eastern Church during the Patristic Age on the West is enormous if not total - the Latins basically received their theology, liturgy, and spirituality from the Byzantines just as the Byzantines received it all from the Orientals - but the West usually regarded all the Greeks starting with St. Symeon the New Theologian as heretics.
I have occasionally seen lists of saints we AREN’T supposed to venerate, though the list always seems to vary and I have always seen Catholics who venerate some or all of them. The list usually includes the usurper Photius (“St. Photios the Great”), Markos Eugenikos (“St. Mark of Ephesus”) who opposed the Council of Florence, [St.] Alexis Toth who led the Ruthenian exodus to Orthodoxy, the Empress Theodora, Pontius Pilate (who is venerated only by the Ethiopians), and any member of the Russian royal family. I would probably add Ignatius Brianchaninov on account of his anti-Catholicism, but I don’t like me personally deciding which saints to venerate and which ones not to - I would like to see a list from the bishops (the Byzantine ones) or the Magisterium. The Vatican is used to treating the Roman Rite as the universal Church and all the other rites as particular churches with particular saints that nobody outside the geographic or ethnic clique would care about, and as far as I can tell they’ve just ignored the problem of Orthodox saints.
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
St Photios the Great is venerated formally by the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church and is on their calendar.
Fr. Francis Dvornik’s work on Photios has revealed to us so much of what we didn’t know before about Photios, such as that he died in union with Rome, that the Pope of his day received him with equal honours to himself, (i.e. Old Rome and New Rome, even though Elder Rome has the primacy) and the like. Photios was a man of the widest possible education and spirituality and he was in constant prayer and communion with God. The addition of the Filioque to the universal Creed at the time was something that many in the West would have agreed with him on (apart from the theological considerations). It was also St Photios who sent Sts. Cyril and Methodius to evangelize the Slavs at the time of Prince Nicholas Askold in Kyiv.
St Mark of Ephesus, it is true, refused to sign the instrument of union at the Council of Florence. However, he was never condemned as a heretic or anything by Rome. St Mark attended the Council enthusiastically as a . . . unionist. He actually wanted union with Rome but he represented the perspective of his Church when he insisted that the minimum requirement to effect such union was that the Latin Church drop the Filioque (he didn’t even raise the question of the Latin Church’s Trinitarian theology, just the issue of the inclusion of the Filioque in the Creed). Today, I don’t see how anyone can fault him for maintaining the position of his Church. The other Greek bishops who signed the union with Rome did so to placate their Emperor who needed Western military aid against the Turks. Most of them later recanted their signatures due to popular opposition from the Orthodox people, save for some like Metropolitan Isidore of Kyiv (who was imprisoned by the Russians when he returned home and then escaped to the West where he spent the rest of his life saving as many of his Greek countrymen from Turkish enslavement as possible). Even upon a hoped for reunion of the Churches in future, St Mark of Ephesus will continue to be honoured by the East (although not right now by EC’s).
St Gregory Palamas is acknowledged now as a saint by Rome, and this occurred in 1973. The other saints mentioned who expressed opposition to the Latin West - many Orthodox saints did the same at one time or another. It would be, however, like the East denying the sanctity of a Roman Catholic saint because he said something disparaging about the Orthodox Church in his lifetime - again, people repeat the prejudices of their environments. The fact that St Theophane the Recluse did this did not prevent Pope John Paul II from privately venerating him for his vast teachings on the spirituality of the Jesus Prayer. Pope John Paul II was also very devoted to St Seraphim of Sarov - another teacher and practitioner of the Jesus Prayer and the Hail Mary rosary.
St Alexander Nevsky wanted to preserve his nation’s Orthodox traditions and he certainly fought against the RC Teutonic knights who invaded Russia. But according to Fr. Holweck in his “Dictionary of the Saints” 1924, he later was in “at least personal union with Rome.” While I doubt that, it does show that he had very good relations with Rome.
What this ultimately points to is the issue of local Saints. Union of the Churches will not mean that all the saints of each must be in everyone else’s calendar. When the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox commission met, they discussed this matter and established that upon reunion both sides will continue to honour the Saints they have always honoured without requiring the other side to adopt them (such “saint adoption” does occur, but it happens over time and is up to the local Churches).
As for Pontius Pilate, that is a local devotion by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. In fact, they have the “Acts of Pilate” upon which they base their veneration of Pilate as a saint. Are the Acts of Pilate spurious? They don’t believe they are and they have honoured Pilate as a saint from ancient times. My own view is that we should leave that alone.
FYI, the Acts of Pilate depict him being called to meet the resurrected Christ by his wife and the believing centurion. He put on sack-cloth and saw Christ standing in a field preaching to about 500 people. Christ noticed him and walked up to him. Pilate was overcome with emotion and felt the earth quake under his feet. He fell down on his face before the Lord. Christ placed His Hands on Pilate and Pilate quickly glanced at our Lord’s Wounds. Our Lord then said to him, “Blessed are you Gaius Pontius Pilate for in the days of your administration were fulfilled the prophecies about Me as foretold.”
Pilate was then recalled to Rome after writing to the Emperor about what had happened at Jerusalem. The Emperor demanded of Pilate an answer as to why he allowed Christ to be crucified - he should have enlisted our Lord into the Roman civil service to benefit the empire! The Emperor sentenced Pilate to death - and he was already baptized by then. As he knelt to receive the blow from the sword, Pilate prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” As his head came off, his wife, Claudia Procula, saw an angel take hold of it - and she died right there and then from joy that her husband, like her, had come to the Lord.
On the basis of this, the Ethiopian Church honours Pilate as a saint. If we were going to cancel saints from the calendar on the basis of “fantastic” stories, we would have to remove a lot of saints.
I respect my Ethiopian friends for their traditions which includes the veneration of St Pontius Pilate. I once asked an Ethiopian priest, “Is it true, Father, that you honour Pilate as a saint?” He smiled eagerly and said, “Yes, of course, don’t you?”
Alex
Fr. Francis Dvornik’s work on Photios has revealed to us so much of what we didn’t know before about Photios, such as that he died in union with Rome, that the Pope of his day received him with equal honours to himself, (i.e. Old Rome and New Rome, even though Elder Rome has the primacy) and the like. Photios was a man of the widest possible education and spirituality and he was in constant prayer and communion with God. The addition of the Filioque to the universal Creed at the time was something that many in the West would have agreed with him on (apart from the theological considerations). It was also St Photios who sent Sts. Cyril and Methodius to evangelize the Slavs at the time of Prince Nicholas Askold in Kyiv.
St Mark of Ephesus, it is true, refused to sign the instrument of union at the Council of Florence. However, he was never condemned as a heretic or anything by Rome. St Mark attended the Council enthusiastically as a . . . unionist. He actually wanted union with Rome but he represented the perspective of his Church when he insisted that the minimum requirement to effect such union was that the Latin Church drop the Filioque (he didn’t even raise the question of the Latin Church’s Trinitarian theology, just the issue of the inclusion of the Filioque in the Creed). Today, I don’t see how anyone can fault him for maintaining the position of his Church. The other Greek bishops who signed the union with Rome did so to placate their Emperor who needed Western military aid against the Turks. Most of them later recanted their signatures due to popular opposition from the Orthodox people, save for some like Metropolitan Isidore of Kyiv (who was imprisoned by the Russians when he returned home and then escaped to the West where he spent the rest of his life saving as many of his Greek countrymen from Turkish enslavement as possible). Even upon a hoped for reunion of the Churches in future, St Mark of Ephesus will continue to be honoured by the East (although not right now by EC’s).
St Gregory Palamas is acknowledged now as a saint by Rome, and this occurred in 1973. The other saints mentioned who expressed opposition to the Latin West - many Orthodox saints did the same at one time or another. It would be, however, like the East denying the sanctity of a Roman Catholic saint because he said something disparaging about the Orthodox Church in his lifetime - again, people repeat the prejudices of their environments. The fact that St Theophane the Recluse did this did not prevent Pope John Paul II from privately venerating him for his vast teachings on the spirituality of the Jesus Prayer. Pope John Paul II was also very devoted to St Seraphim of Sarov - another teacher and practitioner of the Jesus Prayer and the Hail Mary rosary.
St Alexander Nevsky wanted to preserve his nation’s Orthodox traditions and he certainly fought against the RC Teutonic knights who invaded Russia. But according to Fr. Holweck in his “Dictionary of the Saints” 1924, he later was in “at least personal union with Rome.” While I doubt that, it does show that he had very good relations with Rome.
What this ultimately points to is the issue of local Saints. Union of the Churches will not mean that all the saints of each must be in everyone else’s calendar. When the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox commission met, they discussed this matter and established that upon reunion both sides will continue to honour the Saints they have always honoured without requiring the other side to adopt them (such “saint adoption” does occur, but it happens over time and is up to the local Churches).
As for Pontius Pilate, that is a local devotion by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. In fact, they have the “Acts of Pilate” upon which they base their veneration of Pilate as a saint. Are the Acts of Pilate spurious? They don’t believe they are and they have honoured Pilate as a saint from ancient times. My own view is that we should leave that alone.
FYI, the Acts of Pilate depict him being called to meet the resurrected Christ by his wife and the believing centurion. He put on sack-cloth and saw Christ standing in a field preaching to about 500 people. Christ noticed him and walked up to him. Pilate was overcome with emotion and felt the earth quake under his feet. He fell down on his face before the Lord. Christ placed His Hands on Pilate and Pilate quickly glanced at our Lord’s Wounds. Our Lord then said to him, “Blessed are you Gaius Pontius Pilate for in the days of your administration were fulfilled the prophecies about Me as foretold.”
Pilate was then recalled to Rome after writing to the Emperor about what had happened at Jerusalem. The Emperor demanded of Pilate an answer as to why he allowed Christ to be crucified - he should have enlisted our Lord into the Roman civil service to benefit the empire! The Emperor sentenced Pilate to death - and he was already baptized by then. As he knelt to receive the blow from the sword, Pilate prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” As his head came off, his wife, Claudia Procula, saw an angel take hold of it - and she died right there and then from joy that her husband, like her, had come to the Lord.
On the basis of this, the Ethiopian Church honours Pilate as a saint. If we were going to cancel saints from the calendar on the basis of “fantastic” stories, we would have to remove a lot of saints.
I respect my Ethiopian friends for their traditions which includes the veneration of St Pontius Pilate. I once asked an Ethiopian priest, “Is it true, Father, that you honour Pilate as a saint?” He smiled eagerly and said, “Yes, of course, don’t you?”
Alex
C
Cecilianus
Guest
Thanks; this was really helpful.St Photios the Great is venerated formally by the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church and is on their calendar.
Fr. Francis Dvornik’s work on Photios has revealed to us so much of what we didn’t know before about Photios, such as that he died in union with Rome, that the Pope of his day received him with equal honours to himself, (i.e. Old Rome and New Rome, even though Elder Rome has the primacy) and the like. Photios was a man of the widest possible education and spirituality and he was in constant prayer and communion with God. The addition of the Filioque to the universal Creed at the time was something that many in the West would have agreed with him on (apart from the theological considerations). It was also St Photios who sent Sts. Cyril and Methodius to evangelize the Slavs at the time of Prince Nicholas Askold in Kyiv.
St Mark of Ephesus, it is true, refused to sign the instrument of union at the Council of Florence. However, he was never condemned as a heretic or anything by Rome. St Mark attended the Council enthusiastically as a . . . unionist. He actually wanted union with Rome but he represented the perspective of his Church when he insisted that the minimum requirement to effect such union was that the Latin Church drop the Filioque (he didn’t even raise the question of the Latin Church’s Trinitarian theology, just the issue of the inclusion of the Filioque in the Creed). Today, I don’t see how anyone can fault him for maintaining the position of his Church. The other Greek bishops who signed the union with Rome did so to placate their Emperor who needed Western military aid against the Turks. Most of them later recanted their signatures due to popular opposition from the Orthodox people, save for some like Metropolitan Isidore of Kyiv (who was imprisoned by the Russians when he returned home and then escaped to the West where he spent the rest of his life saving as many of his Greek countrymen from Turkish enslavement as possible). Even upon a hoped for reunion of the Churches in future, St Mark of Ephesus will continue to be honoured by the East (although not right now by EC’s).
St Gregory Palamas is acknowledged now as a saint by Rome, and this occurred in 1973. The other saints mentioned who expressed opposition to the Latin West - many Orthodox saints did the same at one time or another. It would be, however, like the East denying the sanctity of a Roman Catholic saint because he said something disparaging about the Orthodox Church in his lifetime - again, people repeat the prejudices of their environments. The fact that St Theophane the Recluse did this did not prevent Pope John Paul II from privately venerating him for his vast teachings on the spirituality of the Jesus Prayer. Pope John Paul II was also very devoted to St Seraphim of Sarov - another teacher and practitioner of the Jesus Prayer and the Hail Mary rosary.
St Alexander Nevsky wanted to preserve his nation’s Orthodox traditions and he certainly fought against the RC Teutonic knights who invaded Russia. But according to Fr. Holweck in his “Dictionary of the Saints” 1924, he later was in “at least personal union with Rome.” While I doubt that, it does show that he had very good relations with Rome.
What this ultimately points to is the issue of local Saints. Union of the Churches will not mean that all the saints of each must be in everyone else’s calendar. When the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox commission met, they discussed this matter and established that upon reunion both sides will continue to honour the Saints they have always honoured without requiring the other side to adopt them (such “saint adoption” does occur, but it happens over time and is up to the local Churches).
As for Pontius Pilate, that is a local devotion by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. In fact, they have the “Acts of Pilate” upon which they base their veneration of Pilate as a saint. Are the Acts of Pilate spurious? They don’t believe they are and they have honoured Pilate as a saint from ancient times. My own view is that we should leave that alone.
FYI, the Acts of Pilate depict him being called to meet the resurrected Christ by his wife and the believing centurion. He put on sack-cloth and saw Christ standing in a field preaching to about 500 people. Christ noticed him and walked up to him. Pilate was overcome with emotion and felt the earth quake under his feet. He fell down on his face before the Lord. Christ placed His Hands on Pilate and Pilate quickly glanced at our Lord’s Wounds. Our Lord then said to him, “Blessed are you Gaius Pontius Pilate for in the days of your administration were fulfilled the prophecies about Me as foretold.”
Pilate was then recalled to Rome after writing to the Emperor about what had happened at Jerusalem. The Emperor demanded of Pilate an answer as to why he allowed Christ to be crucified - he should have enlisted our Lord into the Roman civil service to benefit the empire! The Emperor sentenced Pilate to death - and he was already baptized by then. As he knelt to receive the blow from the sword, Pilate prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” As his head came off, his wife, Claudia Procula, saw an angel take hold of it - and she died right there and then from joy that her husband, like her, had come to the Lord.
On the basis of this, the Ethiopian Church honours Pilate as a saint. If we were going to cancel saints from the calendar on the basis of “fantastic” stories, we would have to remove a lot of saints.
I respect my Ethiopian friends for their traditions which includes the veneration of St Pontius Pilate. I once asked an Ethiopian priest, “Is it true, Father, that you honour Pilate as a saint?” He smiled eagerly and said, “Yes, of course, don’t you?”
Alex
M
Marc_Anthony
Guest
Is Pontius Pilate venerated in any of the Eastern Catholic Churches?
M
Marc_Anthony
Guest
I believe the Emperor Constantine is an Orthodox Saint as well as an Eastern Catholic Saint, correct?
C
Cecilianus
Guest
My understanding is he was the only saint that Rome insisted that the Ethiopian Catholic Church remove from their calendar. I’m sure Alexander Roman is not the only Eastern Catholic who venerates him, though; I share Alex’s view of “fantastic” stories.
C
Cecilianus
Guest
Yes. Many people are unaware that he is a Catholic saint as well as an Orthodox one, but he is quite definitely on the Catholic calendar and there are churches named after him (in Minneapolis, for example).
M
Marc_Anthony
Guest
In a way, it’s kind of a shame.
O
OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
I’m surprised people here have forgotten Blessed St. Mary Of Egypt, whose incredible and inspiring story is said BY SOME (not me) to be the inspiration for the whole “Mary Magdalene was a prostitute and fallen woman” narrative that Gregory The Great insituted.
My priest happen to be devotee of Mary—I have become one. Very blessed among RC and EC practicers—particularly the ECers.
The Melkites worship her devoutly.
C
Cecilianus
Guest
She lived before the schism, however, and like all the other Eastern saints before the schism she is venerated by everyone. I would be careful about how you use the term “worship”, though.
P
PAboy57
Guest
Very inspiring story. Thanks
- Status