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chosen_people
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For my take on the Finaly brothers case see my thread on this forum “the finaly brothers affair” post #5 including link
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chosen_people
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Forgetting about books on the subject, if you choose to google “new testament jews” or “new testament antisemitism” you will get hundeds of thousands of hits on the subject from all points of views. To me its obvious that any little Catholic boy or girl learning about Jews from the Christian scriptures will begin to formulate negative opinions about Jews.**All Israel Will Be Saved **
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this isf] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."g]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may nowh] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
**Doxology **
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and*(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28228i”)] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
+++
You see? Saul says, “All Israel will be saved.” Yes, there is a “hardening in part” at present…not all recognized the Messiah at the time or today, but God will make these things clear in the last day.
Saul/Paul is chastising the Roman Christians for thinking of themselves more highly than they should with respect to their older “brothers”, the Jews! He was teaching them to be humble because it was only by God’s mercy that some of Israel had rejected the messiah thus allowing the Gentiles to be grafted in to the faith of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
I hope I have explained this adequately and with respect for your faith. If you feel that there are any anti-Semitic passages in the New Testament that you’d like to discuss, by all means, please share them with me so that I can reflect upon them.
I’d be very interested to learn your perspective and share mine with you!
C
chosen_people
Guest
I will try to put this as respectfully and as clearly as I can (I only get to practice writing in english on the internet)Chosen,
But I will offer a few thoughts and if you would like to converse privately, we can exchange email addresses and possibly see where it goes from there later. Fair enough?
I would recommend picking up Roy Schoeman’s book, Salvation is From the Jews. Roy is a Jewish believer in Christ who became Catholic many years ago. He documents at length Hitler’s paganism (in fact, Nazism in general). It is not fair to lay blame for him on the Catholic Church anymore than it is fair to lay the blame for Lenin, Trotsky (and Communism) on Judaism. These men all rejected their faith and therefore their faith cannot legitimately be blamed for their atrocities and excesses.
I fear that the can you are opening has many worms that can burrow as deeply against Jews as Christians. It is seriously wrong in either direction and I hope you will agree and stop going down that road in this discussion. I can almost guarantee that only evil will come of it.
To be clear, I do not dispute that Catholics have done abominable things to Jews. I am reading the book The Anguish of the Jews by Fr. Flannery that documents many ulgy things. Although, in most cases, it appears that these things were done for secular reasons unrelated to the faith…sometimes abusing the faith to find justification.
However, there have certainly been Christians who persecuted Jews using Christianity as a justification. For instance, your understanding of Coughlin is correct to the best of my knowledge, although in fairness, he was eventually shut down by the Church (and the govt.). (Still, this is not to say that it was soon enough.)
However, I believe it is necessary to introduce valid distinctions into the repertoire. Something (or someone) may be anti-Judaism without being anti-Semitic. Something (or someone) may be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic (although I readily agree that far too many people hide behind opposition to Zionism, when they are actually anti-Semitic).
And it is certainly true that anti-Semites will be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionist. So there may often be cross-over. I think it is also important to define what we mean by “anti-Judaism”.
As all of Christ’s Apostles were Jews (as was Jesus himself and almost all of his followers until later on), I do not agree that the New Testament is “anti-Semitic.” I don’t think that makes any sense. Was Jesus sometimes harsh with Jews who did not believe in Him? Yes. But again, Jesus is Jewish.
In the end, doesn’t that come down to whether or not Jesus was Who He said He was? If he was Who He said He was, then those Jews who rejected Him made a horrible mistake. If he wasn’t, then Jesus and all his followers have made a terrible mistake (whether ethically Jewish or gentile).
Yet, even here, distinctions must be made (and are made by the Church). See if this makes sense to you, coming from a Catholic perspective:
Of course we believe that Jesus is the Messiah. And as such, we believe that it is a serious error to reject Him. Yet, the culpability of one who knew and heard Jesus Himself would be far different than a Jew today who never knew Him and who may only have learned from the worst of His followers.
God alone judges the heart. He alone will judge who goes to heaven and who does not.
The Catholic Church believes that Jews are still very much loved by God and that they are in a very real sense, our “elder brothers.”
I am truly facinated with the underlying sources in Catholicism that create negative attitudes towards Jews, some so strong, that they have led to the most immoral of acts including murder. How and why were such feelings engendered and how and why were they thought to be justified when committed against a Jew? (for instance my grandmother’s great great great great great great grandfather, a village rabbi, was burnt alive at the stake after he refused to convert to christianity)
In addition, as to modern antisemitism, it would seem to me that the Catholic Church feels constantly threatend by new intellectual ideas and by advancements in science, medicine and technolgy (from dealing with the fact that the sun didn’t orbit around the earth to Einstien and Freud to gene therapy). Jews, despite making up a miniscule one quarter of one per cent are highly over represented in those fields, bringing them potentially in continuing conflict with the Church.
At any rate I have sent you my email address and the choice is yours whether to discuss these matters openly.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
My kids have never been taught anything like this in their CCD classes.Forgetting about books on the subject, if you choose to google “new testament jews” or “new testament antisemitism” you will get hundeds of thousands of hits on the subject from all points of views. To me its obvious that any little Catholic boy or girl learning about Jews from the Christian scriptures will begin to formulate negative opinions about Jews.
Best wishes.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
I was going to drop this thread, but this has been bugging me all day.Forgetting about books on the subject, if you choose to google “new testament jews” or “new testament antisemitism” you will get hundeds of thousands of hits on the subject from all points of views. To me its obvious that any little Catholic boy or girl learning about Jews from the Christian scriptures will begin to formulate negative opinions about Jews.
In addition, as to modern antisemitism, it would seem to me that the Catholic Church feels constantly threatend by new intellectual ideas and by advancements in science, medicine and technolgy (from dealing with the fact that the sun didn’t orbit around the earth to Einstien and Freud to gene therapy). Jews, despite making up a miniscule one quarter of one per cent are highly over represented in those fields, bringing them potentially in continuing conflict with the Church.
In your opening post, you took me to task for speaking broadly of “the Jews” thereby impugning ALL Jews (though I meant only the leadership).
Now, however, it seems you are taking pretty broad swipes at ALL Catholics and the Catholic Church.
I would have thought that you, of all people, would be more sensitive to gross generalizations and stereotypes.
Is there a double standard here?
C
chosen_people
Guest
Randy ShalomI was going to drop this thread, but this has been bugging me all day.
In your opening post, you took me to task for speaking broadly of “the Jews” thereby impugning ALL Jews (though I meant only the leadership).
Now, however, it seems you are taking pretty broad swipes at ALL Catholics and the Catholic Church.
I would have thought that you, of all people, would be more sensitive to gross generalizations and stereotypes.
Is there a double standard here?
Your missing the point
If all Catholics were not antisemites or if all Catholics were antisemites than there would be absolutely no point for a discussion on Catholic antisemitism
Now if the things Catholics are being taught about Jews is similar, in as much as such attitudes are being formulated by their religion, the question remains how to we account for the difference in attitudes?
For example, during the holocaust certain Polish Catholics protected Jews even at the risk of their own lives
On the other hand, when Jews who survived the holocaust tried to go back to their homes in Poland they were met with race riots by other Polish Catholics and many of the Jews were murdered
I am trying to discuss these and other antisemitic events in as much as they concern Catholics and Catholicism.
One possible explanation for this dichotomy of attitudes is in the inherent dichotomy of Christianity towards the Jews
On the one hand are Catholic attitudes towards the Jews as a sort of affirmation of Christianity
On the other hand are Catholic attitudes that the Jews are somehow cursed for their rejection of Yehoshua bar Yosef.
M
mrteachersir
Guest
Chosen,
Hitler was raised Catholic, but that means nothing. I was raised Methodist…big deal.
Hitler was an atheist. He rejected Christianity. He rejected the sort of idiotic ‘religious’ bigotry that was common in Germany in the Middle Ages: ‘Christ killers’, ‘baby killers’ (that one was borrowed from the Jews of the first century, see Pliny the Younger), etc. He took on a new form of anti-semitism: his hatred was for ethnicity, for genetics, for history. He promulgated the theories espoused by the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (that forgery promoted by the viciously anti-semitic Czarist regime in Russia): that Jews were attempting to create a “new world order”, and that Jews, as heads of banks and newspapers, were ruining Europe’s economies for their own gain. His hatred was for your blood, not your faith. Compare that with the quotes from the early Fathers: Hitler wants you dead, they, following Paul’s advice with regards to heretics and schismatics, chose to isolate themselves from you.
I had the privelege of having two Jewish professors (one history and one english) in college. They helped me see that the anti-Jewishness from the Middle-Ages (and earlier, if you count the Alexandria riots before Christ) are the result of two real situations, isolated from Catholic teaching: 1) Jews are supposed to separated themselves from Gentiles both physically and in everyday practices, and 2) Jews have historically been very successful in business and matters of finance (not all, but many). This has caused most people in contact with Jews to become suspicious of their reclusiveness and jealous of their success (as seen the “racical tensions” in certain sections of NYC, dominated by Hassidic Jews and blackshence, King John kicked the Jews out of England in the ealry 1200s: he owed some prominent ones too much money and rather than pay them back, he kicked them out, and ). The teachings of the parish priests could not seriously overcome these ingrained misgivings, particularly because many of them had similar misgivings. The true nature of the Church can be seen in the actions of the bishops in the Rhein valley during the First Crusade, in which a rabble of German peasants, not being able to ‘kill the infidel’ in Jerusalem, sought to kill the next best thing (in their minds): Jews. The bishops opened their palaces to thousands of fleeing Jews, in an attempt to save them… They chastised the participants of the slaughter.
Hitler was raised Catholic, but that means nothing. I was raised Methodist…big deal.
Hitler was an atheist. He rejected Christianity. He rejected the sort of idiotic ‘religious’ bigotry that was common in Germany in the Middle Ages: ‘Christ killers’, ‘baby killers’ (that one was borrowed from the Jews of the first century, see Pliny the Younger), etc. He took on a new form of anti-semitism: his hatred was for ethnicity, for genetics, for history. He promulgated the theories espoused by the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (that forgery promoted by the viciously anti-semitic Czarist regime in Russia): that Jews were attempting to create a “new world order”, and that Jews, as heads of banks and newspapers, were ruining Europe’s economies for their own gain. His hatred was for your blood, not your faith. Compare that with the quotes from the early Fathers: Hitler wants you dead, they, following Paul’s advice with regards to heretics and schismatics, chose to isolate themselves from you.
I had the privelege of having two Jewish professors (one history and one english) in college. They helped me see that the anti-Jewishness from the Middle-Ages (and earlier, if you count the Alexandria riots before Christ) are the result of two real situations, isolated from Catholic teaching: 1) Jews are supposed to separated themselves from Gentiles both physically and in everyday practices, and 2) Jews have historically been very successful in business and matters of finance (not all, but many). This has caused most people in contact with Jews to become suspicious of their reclusiveness and jealous of their success (as seen the “racical tensions” in certain sections of NYC, dominated by Hassidic Jews and blackshence, King John kicked the Jews out of England in the ealry 1200s: he owed some prominent ones too much money and rather than pay them back, he kicked them out, and ). The teachings of the parish priests could not seriously overcome these ingrained misgivings, particularly because many of them had similar misgivings. The true nature of the Church can be seen in the actions of the bishops in the Rhein valley during the First Crusade, in which a rabble of German peasants, not being able to ‘kill the infidel’ in Jerusalem, sought to kill the next best thing (in their minds): Jews. The bishops opened their palaces to thousands of fleeing Jews, in an attempt to save them… They chastised the participants of the slaughter.
P
Polska
Guest
Seriously, I am angry, frustrated and sick and tired of hearing about this anti-semitist mumbo jumbo. Why is it that jews are yelling and screaming about anti-semitism all around the world? I hear about anti-semitism on a regular basis. If its not Mel Gibson, then its Iran, then its always someone or something. Firstly, if people are so anti-semtic as jews claim, then maybe really it is something wrong they are doing, and not the other 6-7 billion people who live on this earth. I saw a cartoon drawing where a dog barks at a jew, and the jew points at the dog and states :Anti-semite. Pretty funny and pretty accurate description of what is going on in the world. Also, the mere fact that many jews feel that the new testament is anti-semitic bothers me, because that means our religion is anti-semitic, and thus, we are anti-semitic simply by being Catholic.
P
Polska
Guest
How can you blame Polish Catholics for the death of jews in Poland?Randy Shalom
Your missing the point
If all Catholics were not antisemites or if all Catholics were antisemites than there would be absolutely no point for a discussion on Catholic antisemitism
Now if the things Catholics are being taught about Jews is similar, in as much as such attitudes are being formulated by their religion, the question remains how to we account for the difference in attitudes?
For example, during the holocaust certain Polish Catholics protected Jews even at the risk of their own lives
On the other hand, when Jews who survived the holocaust tried to go back to their homes in Poland they were met with race riots by other Polish Catholics and many of the Jews were murdered
I am trying to discuss these and other antisemitic events in as much as they concern Catholics and Catholicism.
One possible explanation for this dichotomy of attitudes is in the inherent dichotomy of Christianity towards the Jews
On the one hand are Catholic attitudes towards the Jews as a sort of affirmation of Christianity
On the other hand are Catholic attitudes that the Jews are somehow cursed for their rejection of Yehoshua bar Yosef.
V
Vigis
Guest
People love to say that Pope Pius XII was in league with Hitler, but this was untrue. They say that he did nothing to help the Jews as well. That is untrue. Why? Well it turns out that Pope Pius XII forged 10,000! baptismal documents for the Jews. He saved 10,000 Jewish lives! Now that is not anti-semetic Catholic. Go with God.
For more about this here is a good link:
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html
Vigis
For more about this here is a good link:
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html
Vigis
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