Catholic canonical books not part of the bible

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since jesus diidnt quote any of these books,andthe jewish authorities didnt refer to them,they are not part of the bible 👍
 
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catholic1:
since jesus diidnt quote any of these books,andthe jewish authorities didnt refer to them,they are not part of the bible 👍
Yes, they are part of the Bible.

Read this :

Defending the Deuterocanonicals
by Jimmy Akin
cin.org/users/james/files/deuteros.htm

and this :

The Old Testament Canon
by Jimmy Akin
cin.org/users/james/files/deutero2.htm
 
Actually, if you are referring to the deutocrominical (sorry about the spelling), He did quote them. So did St. Paul, so I’d accept them. I’m sure others can tell more. G
 
okay dear friend in jesus christ where what gospel and as for saint paul what book 👍 🙂
 
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catholic1:
since jesus diidnt quote any of these books,andthe jewish authorities didnt refer to them,they are not part of the bible 👍
The logic is a bit flawed on that one. By canonical, I assume you are referring to the inspiration of such books. That immediately excludes your two arguments. Why? Simply because God never said “only that which is referred to or quoted, did I actually write.” That being said, your test is unBiblical itself.

As for quotations, 300 of the 350 OT quotations in the NT are from the Septuagint. The earliest known copies of the Septuagint all contain the deuterocanonicals. The Septuagint *was *quoted by Jesus and the apostles, and it did contain the deuteros. But all of this I am sure James Akin discusses thoroughly in the above link.

Peace,
Michael
 
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catholic1:
since jesus diidnt quote any of these books,andthe jewish authorities didnt refer to them,they are not part of the bible 👍
Jesus and the Jewish authorities also didn’t quote a bunch of books that even protestants hold to be canonical.

Plus, nobody quoted any of the NT books, so how do we know about them?
 
The human authors of the books of the New Testament themselves considered the Greek version of the Jewish scriptures (i.e., the Septuagint, which includes the Deuterocanonicals) to be genuine and inspired. For example, Heb 10.5-6 quotes the Greek version of Ps 40.6-8: For this reason, when (Christ) came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; holocausts and sin offerings you took no delight in. Then I said, ‘As is written of me in the scroll, Behold, I come to do your will, O God.’” The Hebrew version of this Psalm is considerably different.

Again, Jesus himself, in Mark 7:7, “this people honors me with their lips but their hearts are far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts,” quotes the Septuagint version of Isaiah 29:13. Some other examples: Rom 1:19-26 refers to Wis 12: 23- 13:1; Lk 1.52 refers to Sir 10.14; Mt 6:12 refers to Sir 28.12. (For a detailed study of the use of the Septuagint in the New Testament see the study of R. Grant Jones at home.earthlink.net/~rgjones3/Septuagint/spindex.htm. According to Jones, fully two-thirds of the references in the New Testament are to the Greek (not the Hebrew) version of the Old Testament.)

NB: New Testament authors also quote or refer to other ancient Jewish or pagan texts. The fact that an author of a text that the Catholic Church decided to include in the NT refers to the Septuagint is not what makes the Septuagint authoritative and canonical. It is through the authority which Jesus gave to the Church which determines which texts, both OT and NT, are inspired. All Christians until the 16th century accepted the full canon as determined by the Catholic Church, and even today, Protestants still accept the NT canon as the Catholic Church defined it.

Luther rejected the Septuagint because it gave clear biblical evidence for purgatory ((2 Macc. 12:44-45) see your other thread), as he also wanted to reject the Letter to the Hebrews, the Letter of James and the Book of Revelation.
 
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catholic1:
since jesus diidnt quote any of these books,andthe jewish authorities didnt refer to them,they are not part of the bible 👍
Nice try. But try again.

Jesus referenced the Deuterocanonicals in the following instances:

Matthew 6:12, 14-15—“Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; if you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your heavenly father forgive your transgressions.”
Sirach 28:2—“Forgive your neighbor’s injustice; then when you pray, your own sins will be forgiven.”

Luke 1:17 (describing John the Baptist)—“He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of fathers towards children and the disobediant to the understanding of the righteous, to prepare a people fit for the Lord.”
Sirach 48:10—“You are destined, it is written, in time to come, to put an end to wrath before the day of the Lord, to turn back the hearts of fathers towards their sons, and to re-establish the tribes of Jacob.”

Luke 1:28, 1:42—“And coming to her, he said, ‘Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you!’…Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Judith 13:18—"Then Uzziah said to her: 'Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women of the earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the Creator of heaven and earth.

Luke 1:52—“He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones, but lifted up the lowly.”
Sirach 10:14—“The thrones of the arrogant God overturns, and establishes the lowly in their stead.”

Luke 12:19-20—“I shall say to myself, ‘Now as for you, you have so many good things stored up for many years, rest, eat, drink, be merry!’ But God said to him, ‘You fool, this night your life will be demanded of you; and the things you have prepared, to whom will they belong?’”
Sirach 11:19—“When he says: ‘I have found rest, now I will feast on my possessions,’ he does not know how long it will be till he dies and leaves them to others.”

Luke 18:22—“When Jesus heard this, he said to him, ‘There is still one thing left for you: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.’”
Sirach 29:11—“Dispose of your treasure as the Most High commands, for that will profit you more than the gold.”

John 3:12—“If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?”
Wisdom 9:16—“Scarce do we guess the things on earth, and what is within our grasp we find with difficulty; but when things are in heaven, who can search them out?”

John 5:18—“For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but he also called God his own Father, making himself equal to God.”
Wisdom 2:16—“He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.”

John 10:29—“My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.”
Wisdom 3:1—“But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them.”
 
Paul and James allude to them as well:

Romans 2:11—“There is no partiality with God.”
Sirach 35:12—“For he is a God of justice, who knows no favorites.”

Romans 9:21—“Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose andanother fo an ignoble one?”
Wisdom 15:7—“For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: both the vessels that serve for clean purposes, and their opposites, all alike; as to what shall be the use of each vessel of eiother class, the worker in clay is the judge.”

Romans 11:24—“For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor?”
Wisdom 9:13—“For what man knows God’s counsel, or who can conceive what the Lord intends?”

1 Thessalonians 2:16—"(The enemies of Christ persecute us), trying to prevent us from speaking to the Gentiles that they may be saved, thus constantly filling up the measure of their sins. But the wrath of God has finally begun to come upon them."
2 Maccabees 6:14—“Thus, in dealing with other nations, the Lord patiently waits until they reach the full measure of their sins before he punishes them; but with us he has decided to deal differently”

James 1:13—“No one experiencing temptation should say, ‘I am being tempted by God’; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one.”
Sirach 15:11-12—“Say not: ‘It was God’s doing that I fell away’; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: ‘It was he who set me astray’; for he has no need of wicked man.”

James 5:2-3—“Your wealth has rotted away, your clothes have become moth-eaten, your gold and silver hav corroded, and that corrosion will be a testimony against you; it will devour your flesh like a fire.”
Judith 16:17—'The Lord Almighty will requite them; in the day of judgement he will punish them: he will send fire and worms into their flesh, and they shall burn and suffer forever."

Now, of course, you may say that these don’t sound like exact quotes, and you’d be right; but there are thousands of allusions in the New Testament from the Old, both Deuterocanon and not, which are not exact quotes. Romans 11:34, for example, also has an allusion to Job 15:8, but ironically the allusion to Wisdom 9:13 is closer in actual wording to it than Job is. And, of course, if you want to get into loose allusions, we could expand the above list to ten times the size it is. Then there are also the cases of outright error in some New Testament quotes, such as Matthew 27:9, in which Matthew quotes “the prophet Jeremiah”, when the allusion is actually found nowhere in Jeremiah but rather in Zecheriah 11:12-13.

There is also the case of some Old Testament books not being quoted by Jesus in the New Testament: He didn’t quote from Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, or the Song of Solomon. And yet they are still considered to be canonical Scripture even though He did not reference them. 🙂
 
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catholic1:
okay dear friend in jesus christ where what gospel and as for saint paul what book 👍 🙂
otay den fren jes u wait fo da gospil paul did tay
 
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catholic1:
since jesus diidnt quote any of these books,andthe jewish authorities didnt refer to them,they are not part of the bible 👍
Muslims riot when a Qur’an gets droped on the floor in US terrorist prison camps. I don’t riot or behead but I do get upset when Christians don’t ‘capatalize’ the “J” in the name of my savior and "G"od - "J"esus "C"hrist. It shows a little respect for my "G"od when we give "H"im the respect "H"e deserves.

I guess maybe it’s a "C"atholic thing though - like knelling when we pray to "H"im. "H"e is not symbolic and thus is due some respect.👍
 
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catholic1:
since jesus diidnt quote any of these books,andthe jewish authorities didnt refer to them,they are not part of the bible 👍

St.Matthew 27 applies Wisdom 2 to the Passion.​

Jesus did not quote Esther - at all. Yet all Christians accept it in one form or another. ##
 
OK, now if you accept the Protestant Bible and all of it’s OT books(39), then show me where Ruth is ever quoted. Or how about Esther? There are a great number of the OT books that are not **Quoted **at all. Now there are cross references, which are distinct from a quotation. A cross reference simply means that there are some type of relation between the OT passage and the NT passage, but it is not a quotation,only similar in meaning, which the deuters have. Now there are other apocraphal writings that are cross references but not quotations, such as two of them that are found in the book of Jude where he refers to "The Assumption of Moses"and “The book of Enoch.” Do you consider those canonical? What is your answer and why?

But what truly matters is this, ‘who had the authority of deciding what was canon and what was not?’ If you are simply gauging what is canonical and what was not by the quotations from the Bible, then why do you believe the books of the Bible in the first place to be canonical? The reason why we have a canon of Scripture is because the Catholic Church defined what was canon throughout the centuries starting at the Council of Hippo in 393AD. It was defined many times and finally was defined once and for all at the Council of Trent. It is not about piecing together a bunch of quotations from the NT in order to decide what is canon in the OT, but it is all about the Apostolic Authority that allows you to define what is canon for the OT and the NT. The Protestants would have never had 66 books for a canon if they had not had the Catholic Bible in the first place to take part of the written Word of God from it. The only one who has the Apostolic Authority is the Catholic Church!
 
The Jews removed the deuterocanonicals from their canon at the Council of Jamnia in 90 AD, a wee bit after Jesus came and established His Church. Part of the reason the books were removed is that they were being used to convert people to Christianity, which did not make the Jews happy.

The canon of Scripture established at the Councils of Hippo & Carthage (as mentioned above) were accepted for over 1000 years until the 1500’s when Luther decided to take them out. And to quote the Bible: “And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” (Rev 22:19) Strong words indeed, and a firm warning.

One other thing, catholic1, if you are indeed “catholic” as your name and profile say, why are the “catholic” canonical books not part of the bible? Please don’t lie about yourself. We like honest people here, even if they disagree with us.👍
 
It is all too clear from the sum total of Catholic1’s posts that he is NOT a Catholic and is in fact someone who misrepresented himself in his profile in order to come in here and make derisive and erroneous statements about our most holy faith that he apparently has learned from James White. :rolleyes:

One wonders if this is the kind of things that some people feel are justifiable ways of “witnessing” to Catholics and “sharing their faith” in a Christ-like way?

I find it very sad.
Pax vobiscum,
 
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