Catholic Catechism (1995) on Salvation

[Lisa44]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1995) says under ‘Church and non-Christians’ 839 -

**841 - **"the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

???

843 - "Thus the church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men…"

Please tell me this doesn’t say that God was the author of non-Christian and non-Judaism religions?

845- "To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation…she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood."

The catholic church alone saves.

"“Outside the Church there is no salvation” 836 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the church fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the church which is the body…"

Why does this author feel the need to “reformulate” the churches position on salvation?

And why does it equivocate on this issue?

This catechism seems to obfuscate an issue that should really be crystal clear. It settles on the truth that outside the church there is no salvation, yet it contradicts itself suggesting that Muslims worship the same god and therefore are not excluded from salvation.

I don’t mean to sound disrespectful, but this part of the Catachism is quite schitzophrenic, and wrong.

Muslims do not worship the trinity, how they can be saved when they don’t acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God, or the truth of the gospels?

I’m trying to reconcile these contradictory passages: Jesus alone saves with, the teachings of Muhammad (that Jesus is not God) also saves.

What is going on?

I’m also trying to understand how other religions were given to man by God. (I thought they were man-made relgions).

Unless someone can show me how Muslims are to be saved when they don’t believe in Jesus or the New Testament I’m going to hold this 1995 Catechism to contain grave errors.

Also, unless someone can show me how other religions were given to man by God (the trinity) I’m going to hold this catechism to contain grave errors.

Thanks, I know this question is long.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

Just some thoughts on some parts…

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1995) says under ‘Church and non-Christians’ 839 -

**841 - **"the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

Sure, God’s plan of salvation includes converting people of all regions, places, nations, religions. Some Muslims have converted to Christianity. This article, in my opinion, is to show an outreach (with respect) to the Muslims (“amongst whom are the Muslims”). It doesn’t say Muslims who actively reject Jesus will be saved…it just says God’s plan includes some amongst them. He will save some of them.

843 - "Thus the church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men…"

Yes…a preparation for the gospel.

Remember Paul debating with those in Athens in Acts? He noticed they had an altar to “an unknown God” since they also believed in a creator. He used this to introduce Christianity!

Acts 22:22-27

22So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.

23"For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD ’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.

24"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;

25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,

27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

Please tell me this doesn’t say that God was the author of non-Christian and non-Judaism religions?

No…this was man’s reaching out. Just like above…that altar to “AN UNKNOWN GOD”.

These religions have some truth…that there is a creator. I think most people know that by instinct. So we can address that instinct in dealing with them like Paul…that’s a preparation for the gospel! Paul’s evangelism is a good role model.

God bless you!

 

[Lisa44]

By His Mercy: It doesn’t say Muslims who actively reject Jesus will be saved…it just says God’s plan includes some amongst them. He will save some of them.

Islam by definition, rejects Jesus as the Son of God. It also rejects the new testament.
Are those who reject Jesus saved?

 

[Genesis315]

First off, the reformulation says the exact same thing, but instead of saying where salvation cannot be found, it explains why it is found where it is found.

Second, the bare minimum knowledge a person must have to be saved is to believe in the one God, non-contingent Creator of all–since St. Paul declares there is no excuse for not knowing otherwise. Plus, to seek salvation, that is communion with God, one must seek God (rather than idols, etc.).

Remember, when the angel brought good tidings at the birth of Christ, he did so to all men of good will, not of perfect knowledge.

Thus, a Muslim in good faith (that is, one who does not know and believe authentic revelation through no fault of his own) but who seeks communion with God and is open and willing to follow the will of God rather than His own, implicitly desires the Logos of God (as His will for us is manifested in Christ, the Logos–one who yearns for the way, the truth, and eternal life yearns for Christ who declared Himself to be those three things), is united by that desire in some way to the Church, and may be saved if he perseveres in charity, seeks to follow the law written on all hearts, etc.

Essentially, the purpose of evangelization is to persuade the world to accept divine grace and surrender themselves completely to the will and love of God (this will and love is manifested in Christ and in the faith and life of the Church). Some may already do this, but are ignorant or mistaken as to His will, but knowledge of the Gospel fulfills their desires, allows them to develop that grace to the fullest, and adhere more strongly to Christ and the divine will. However, many are caught up in idols, superstitions, practical or explicit atheism, or cling to false doctrines out of obstinance, pride, malice or even sloth or negligence.This importance of good will is why there have been both great missionaries to non-Catholics (like St. Francis Xavier) and also great missionaries to Catholics (like St. Francis of Assisi).

 

[Lisa44]

Thus, a Muslim in good faith (that is, one who does not know and believe authentic revelation through no fault of his own).

You mean a Muslim who has never seen a bible? Perhaps this person would repent if they heard the gospel, true. But a Muslim still believes that Christians are infidels and the Catholic Church is a perpetrator of lies and Jesus was just a man.

But the catechism says "together with us they adore the one, merciful God,"
This is false. Christians and Muslims do not have the same God. And therein lies the problem.

 

[Genesis315]

You mean a Muslim who has never seen a bible? Perhaps this person would repent if they heard the gospel, true. But a Muslim still believes that Christians are infidels and the Catholic Church is a perpetrator of lies and Jesus was just a man.

But the catechism says "together with us they adore the one, merciful God,"
This is false. Christians and Muslims do not have the same God. And therein lies the problem.

Yes they do. They may believe errors about him, but they do adore the one God. They are similar to the pagans St. Paul mentions in Acts 17:23–they worship the one God without knowing it. This is because they worship the one, non-contingent, Creator of all things, principle truth, etc. It is impossible to even imagine a non-contingent being that is not the one God. By its very essence such a being’s existence can only be one.

Therefore, if the adoration is directed to this Creator, especially one explicitly linked to Abraham, then they adore the one God (Jews also adore the one God, but deny the Incarnation.)

In pre-Christian Central and South America there were some peoples who rejected idolotry for belief in the supreme Creator and they entrusted themselves to Him (the name of the particular chieftan who declared as much escapes me right now).

As I mentioned before, none of us can judge the culpability of another–God alone searches hearts and rewards us according to our works. Adam and Eve fell because they knew God’s will and chose the devil’s and their own instead–it is the height of pride. Salvation comes by turning back to God in humility and seeking His way rather than our own–and by doing so we can rise up again because Christ came down to us. We are not saved by special knowledge alone–that is Gnosticism–the truth saves because it can direct our will and unite it to God’s.

Again, one who desires not his own way, but *the *way, the truth, and the life, desires Christ, without knowing it, in the words of St. Paul.

Maybe putting it this way will help: Christ said do not judge or condemn–lest we be judged and condemned–are you ready to declare that any particular person is definitively damned? Concern for souls is good, despair for them is not.

 

[Genesis315]

And just to point out that this is nothing new, Pope St. Gregory VII around beginning of the 2nd Millenium wrote to a Muslim ruler: “Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. You and we owe this charity to ourselves especially because we believe in and confess one God, admittedly, in a different way, and daily praise and venerate him, the creator of the world and ruler of this world.”

 

[fhansen]

Most or all of this comes from Vat II documents, Nostra Aetate and Lumen Gentium. I once listened to a seminarian who was trying to convince us that the Church was now denying her unique role in salvation. He quoted much of what you did but left out certain relevant paragraphs such as the following from Nostra Aetate:

The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

The Church is unafraid of other faiths and the fact that man, who’s already made in the image and likeness of God, can obtain truths about his Creator, although imperfectly, by means other than through His direct revelation to the Church. In any case the Church always knows her role of proclaiming Gods truth to the world-of being the sole instrument of salvation that He’s established for that singular purpose.

 

[Lisa44]

Most or all of this comes from Vat II documents, Nostra Aetate and Lumen Gentium. I once listened to a seminarian who was trying to convince us that the Church was now denying her unique role in salvation. He quoted much of what you did but left out certain relevant paragraphs such as the following from Nostra Aetate:

The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

The Church is unafraid of other faiths and the fact that man, who’s already made in the image and likeness of God, can obtain truths about his Creator, although imperfectly, by means other than through His direct revelation to the Church. In any case the Church always knows her role of proclaiming Gods truth to the world-of being the sole instrument of salvation that He’s established for that singular purpose.

Hi, your quote doesn’t speak to salvation, except through Christ. And that is my point that the catechism seems to me to dance around a bit.
I didn’t become a Catholic because it is “the fullness of religious life” but because it is only through knowing Jesus that a person can be saved. (excluding of course people who never heard of christianity or Jesus but that is another topic).

It seems to me that the Catholic church raises some doubts as to whether or not salvation comes through Jesus alone.

You can be certain, that there is no similar teaching in Islam.

Some people think its compassionate to compliment others on their religion, even though it is false, and a lie. I think the opposite. If I was practicing a religion that was false (and I was) I wish someone had told me I was going to risk losing my soul if I persisted. I wish someone had the strength of conviction to tell me to come to the Catholic church.

If the church is content to let others wallow in sin and ignorance then they’re not much a help are they?

Either you throw someone a life raft, or you let them drown, or hope they can swim to shore on their own. Not very compassionate if you ask me.

At least if you tell someone they won’t be saved unless they go to Jesus, then at least you’ve done something! If you say to a Muslilm that they worship the same God and that their’s is a good religion, then honestly, are you kidding?

That is a lie! It is a lie. And shame on anyone who believes that and calls themself a Catholic.

Of course we all have free will, and most times telling someone the truth won’t change anything except, it changes everything for the one who told them. Why, because now when Jesus sees that they testified to him, and to his church, he will know that they understand. What if you could see souls in hell during your judgement and God asks you if you tried to save any of them?

No, well not really, I thought it was quite charming the way they walked around in burqas and had four wives and married children.
I didn’t like much that they murdered Muslims who converted to Christianity, but you know, what can you do?

I still don’t believe this part of the catechism is the truth.

And sinse when? Was truths mixed with lies, something to respect? Of course all mental constructs have some value.
Buddhism has value because it teaches compassion, Mormonism has value because it teaches family values, even Satanism has some value if you look hard enough.

But the point is these religions are NOT the truth and they were not given to man by God. Maybe they were given to man by a spirit, or a demon, or some other principality or power, yes. I don’t deny that something (?) inspired these people. However, it was not the trinity. And to even suggest that the trinity inspired other religions is 100% false! Oh my goodness. You must be kidding me. Lies, lies and more lies.

Ok, I’m done ranting

 

[By_His_Mercy]

Islam by definition, rejects Jesus as the Son of God. It also rejects the new testament.
Are those who reject Jesus saved?

No, not now, but God can change them to accept Jesus and then save them. That’s including Muslims in the plan of salvation. I really think that’s what Vatican II meant…after reading a lot of the council’s documents.

Does this help?

 

[By_His_Mercy]

This is false. Christians and Muslims do not have the same God. And therein lies the problem.

But they worship the God of Abraham as revealed in Genesis…they just reject other revelation. So they do worship the same person of God (the Father)…the God of Abraham in that sense…they just hold to deviations of truth as well. I wouldn’t press this to far. They do attempt to worship the God of Abraham, but they have a grossly misinformed interpretation of Who He is.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

Lisa,

That section of the CCC came out of Vatican II. There’s another section there about the Jews. Look at what’s going on here…it’s long so I just typed the highlights…(with commentary…I really studied this stuff).

The Documents of Vatican II, ed. Abbott, 1966, “Declaration on the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions” (Nostra Aetate)

p. 665
In the “Declaration on the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions” there’s a section on the Jews…describing our “spiritual bond”, the beginnings of our faith as being found in the prophets, etc. Lots of warm gestures. They write “In company with the prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address as Lord in a single voice and ‘serve Him with one accord…’” (footnote 19 here).

Footnote 19 says this:
"A reference to ‘conversion’ of the Jews was removed from an earlier version of this Declaration, because many Council Fathers felt it was not appropriate in a document striving to establish common goals and interests first. …

See what’s going on here? Originally they had the word “conversion” but removed it since they were trying to establish common goals and interests first. Vatican II is making warm gestures, invitations, overtures, etc. to Jews here. I think this could explain the section on Muslims. There’s no footnote on “conversion” there, but the wording of the paragraph is similar…I think they intended the same thing.

God bless you!

 

[thistle]

Islam by definition, rejects Jesus as the Son of God. It also rejects the new testament.
Are those who reject Jesus saved?

Muslims are brought up in that faith (albeit a false one) and most of them basically have little or no opportunity to find out the truth about Christ. Muslims in many countries cannot even try to explore anything other than Islam. Such an attempt (depending on the country) results in execution. In other countries they would be jailed or disowned by their families. So even if they don’t believe in their own religion (Islam) they cannot say that or look for anything else.
The vast majority of muslims have never seen a bible nor would they be allowed to get their hands on a bible.
In short there are many people in the world, including muslims, that do not know the truth about Christ nor do they have the opportunity to find out so I think there is plenty of scope for “invincible ignorance” to apply.

As for your other question, anyone who really does know about Christ but deliberately rejects him would not be saved if they die unrepentent but someone who does not know about Christ nor are they able to find out may be saved depending on the life they lead (i.e. is it a life lived in accordance with Christ’s teachings but without them knowing about Christ).

 

[fhansen]

Hi, your quote doesn’t speak to salvation, except through Christ. And that is my point that the catechism seems to me to dance around a bit.
I didn’t become a Catholic because it is “the fullness of religious life” but because it is only through knowing Jesus that a person can be saved. (excluding of course people who never heard of christianity or Jesus but that is another topic).

Perhaps the paragraph I quoted could’ve been worded more clearly but it’s not the only teaching:

457 The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who “loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins”: “the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world”, and “he was revealed to take away sins”:70
Sick, our nature demanded to be healed; fallen, to be raised up; dead, to rise again. We had lost the possession of the good; it was necessary for it to be given back to us. Closed in the darkness, it was necessary to bring us the light; captives, we awaited a Savior; prisoners, help; slaves, a liberator. Are these things minor or insignificant? Did they not move God to descend to human nature and visit it, since humanity was in so miserable and unhappy a state?71

463 Belief in the true Incarnation of the Son of God is the distinctive sign of Christian faith: "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God."85 Such is the joyous conviction of the Church from her beginning whenever she sings “the mystery of our religion”: "He was manifested in the flesh."86

754 "The Church is, accordingly, a sheepfold, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ. It is also the flock of which God himself foretold that he would be the shepherd, and whose sheep, even though governed by human shepherds, are unfailingly nourished and led by Christ himself, the Good Shepherd and Prince of Shepherds, who gave his life for his sheep.146

776 As sacrament, the Church is Christ’s instrument. “She is taken up by him also as the instrument for the salvation of all,” “the universal sacrament of salvation,” by which Christ is "at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God’s love for men."199 The Church “is the visible plan of God’s love for humanity,” because God desires "that the whole human race may become one People of God, form one Body of Christ, and be built up into one temple of the Holy Spirit."200

The Church is not allowing someone to “wallow in sin and ignorance” when she acknowledges truth. Like St Augustine says, “All truth is Gods’ truth.” And one truth is that man will seek God, responding to an inner thirst for Him, and his seeking will find expression by whatever means it can, however imperfectly. To the extent that other religions are untrue, they’re pointing us away from God. To the extent that they are true, they’re a step towards God-sometimes the only one a person has. But only Catholicism has the “fullness of truth.”

The Church has nothing to offer if she compromises with the world but she also has no way of reaching people if she has a fearful and isolationist mentality.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Why does this author feel the need to “reformulate” the churches position on salvation?

The author was not one single person. Though it was promulgated under the authority of the Servant of God Pope John Paul II, it was the work of many people, under the direction of His Eminence Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect for the CDF at the time. I believe that he has been promoted since then .

 

[Lisa44]

I appreciate all the responses
In the end its an issue of the statements made and not what they ‘meant’. I’m sure the Vatican has proof readers and editors.
I shouldn’t have to read into it something that is not explicitly stated. For instance, that what was intended by the word “Muslims” was those for whom the bible is not available and for whom death is the punishment for renouncing Islam.
We all know this is the case in remote areas, but there are Muslims in the U.S., Canada, Europe, etc… for whom ignorance of Christianity is not the reason they are Muslim.

Judaism is not the issue for me, because Judaism proceeded Christianity and it is the foundation of it and Jesus was a Jew. I am content to let the Jews wrestle with whether or not they think Jesus is the Messiah.

Islam, on the other hand, says it is the religion of Abraham but that is just part of the lie. They don’t even believe the bible is true, but they believe it was made up by men. They use the ‘god of abraham’ thing as a buttress for their cult. To give it the illusion of having a firm foundation.

I understand that being cozy with leaders of other religions may have a strategic goal to end bloodshed. But the Catechism is not a political document, it is the “deposit of faith”.

My faith is not that Muslims and Christians have the same God. My faith is not that the Christian God gave humanity all religions.

God is the author of Judaism and Christianity only. Period end of story. Other religions, be it Islam, Mormonism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc… were developed by men, for men, or were given to men, by spirits. Not from God, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. To say so is ludicrous.

 

[Genesis315]

God is the author of all truth, so whereever there is truth, it comes from God. People can discover these truths on their own, but they are often mixed with error. I don’t think the CCC ever says God is author of what is false in those religions. (also, as an aside, God could not be said to be the author of those aspects of modern Judaism that follow the Talmud, etc.–those are “traditions of men.”)

Second, when it says Muslims, it does mean all Muslims. The plan of salvation includes all men (although not all men will ultimatley be saved). It is talking about the “seeds of the Gospel” already present which can be cultivated into the fullness of faith. Such seeds are present in all men to varying degrees.

Agreeing on common ground is the best place to start–anyone who has ever spoken to anyone about the Catholic faith knows this If you begin with condemnations, you’ll get knowwhere fast. You start with truths they already believe and then show how those actually point to Christ. This is what St. Paul did with the Jews and Pagans he came across.

With Muslims we acknowledge one God, in fact the God of Abraham and we share many (but not all) truths about Him. We acknowledge the need for prayer and obedience to Him and of repentence and salvation. We also acknowledge the existence of Jesus and Mary, etc. These are huge first steps.

It bears pointing out that Islam has often been considered a Christian heresy due to its origin and similarities (St. John of Damascus described it as such, for example).

Here’s a chapter on Islam from a famous old book (The Great Heresies) that might help explain how this is so:

ewtn.com/library/homelibr/heresy4.txt

Essentially, Islam is Christianity with all the incomprehensible mysteries deleted.