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brb3
Guest
Review CCC Part 4, 2558
So, its not optional. Its Catholic doctrine !!
So, its not optional. Its Catholic doctrine !!
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juno24
Guest
Are you trying to convince someone of this, or is this an “aha” moment for you? In other words, has someone told you that a life of prayer and developing a relationship with God is optional and you are trying to prove him wrong, or have you just now realized this for yourself? You seem very excited to have discovered this passage of the CCC, but I can’t really tell if this post is supposed to be “GOTCHA! See, you are wrong!” moment, or an “AHA, I finally get it!” moment.
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kmuestwin
Guest
I guess I’ll wait for the rest of the OP’s post.
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jpjd
Guest
It’s helpful if you can display the excerpt you would like people to read. CCC 2558 is below.
In response to the title of your thread, “Catholic Church DEMANDS we develop a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP to God”, I wouldn’t say that the Church DEMANDS this, I would say that the Church RECOGNIZES, and therefore teaches, this.
*PART FOUR
CHRISTIAN PRAYER SECTION ONE
PRAYER IN THE CHRISTIAN LIFE
2558 “Great is the mystery of the faith!” The Church professes this mystery in the Apostles’ Creed (Part One) and celebrates it in the sacramental liturgy (Part Two), so that the life of the faithful may be conformed to Christ in the Holy Spirit to the glory of God the Father (Part Three). This mystery, then, requires that the faithful believe in it, that they celebrate it, and that they live from it in a vital and personal relationship with the living and true God. This relationship is prayer.
WHAT IS PRAYER?
For me, prayer is a surge of the heart; it is a simple look turned toward heaven, it is a cry of recognition and of love, embracing both trial and joy.1
1 St. Thérèse of Lisieux, Manuscrits autobiographiques, C 25r*
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brb3
Guest
Yes, u found it. Actually, the operative word used is REQUIRES.
In the past, each time someone mentioned need for ‘personal relationship’ with God/Christ, the usual responses were it isn’t a Catholic teaching, or … ‘it isn’t taught is scripture’ or ‘thats a Protestant teaching’. Or some would say, ’ we do so at Eucharist’.
Well, here I discover it in the CCC …
I have no problem with personal relationship with God, from a Lutheran POV, though it isn’t a language we typically use. I do, however, have a problem with the language, in that it can be (and sometimes is) implied as being ok to make our relationship with Him outside the congregation of believers, the Church. It is in the Church where a truly personal relationship grows and develops - word and sacrament.
Jon
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brb3
Guest
In Catholicism, we are taught to recognize that often the truth is a Both/And reality … rather than an either / or.
Christ clearly teaches in John’s Gospel that we are to come to know him as both individuals & collectively as unified brethren in his Church.
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AspiringServant
Guest
Jon
If you examine the protestant churches, you will find the further away from the tree you go, the more impersonal the denomination becomes. A personal God is at the very heart of Christian teaching Father Son and Holy Ghost … Three PERSONS one God.
But what is relationship with the Person of God? The very first relationship described in the Gospel is Mary’s relationship. One must enter into the mysteries of Mary’s Perfect Love and Devotion with God to witness the personal loving exchange between Mary and the Divine fetus Jesus in her womb. This ecstatic love (1st joyful mystery) can be experienced by way of devotion to Mary.
We are given the graces of deep insights and experiences of the child Jesus through Mary as well.
The same goes for the apostles and disciples. For example one need only to contemplate the 2nd joyful mystery to encounter St. John the Baptists ecstasy from the womb! “…the baby in my womb leaped for joy” Luke 1:44
So the Holy Catholic and Apostolic church teachings and devotions provide the path to real personal encounters with Jesus in relationships not only in holy presence, but also in servitude, maternal/paternal, fraternal, friendship, and spousal.
These relationships with Jesus can be encountered only through the intercession of Mary and the saints.
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brb3
Guest
AS …
Lets discuss your last sentence above. Does the Catholic Church dogmatically teach
we CAN ONLY REACH GOD via Mary & Saints ?
First off, I don’t believe it. And, secondly …I doubt the Church has said so …but, give me the teaching of RCC on this.
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JustaServant
Guest
Good post Jon.
Christians on both sides of the Tiber should avoid trendy and shallow evangelical language that is devoid of depth.
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katholikos12
Guest
Tiber? What is this talk of the Tiber? I have seen it numerous times on CAF but i haven’t the slightest clue what anyone is talking about.
I know its off topic sorry.
God calls us to go and make disciples… DISCIPLES not lukewarm sunday Christians.
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JustaServant
Guest
That’s okay dude.
Sometimes we just assume EVERYBODY knows what we are referring to.
The Tiber is a river in Italy. When someone comes back to the Church, it is referred to as “crossing the Tiber.”
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katholikos12
Guest
Comes back after leaving or just comes to the church in general?That’s okay dude.
Sometimes we just assume EVERYBODY knows what we are referring to.
The Tiber is a river in Italy. When someone comes back to the Church, it is referred to as “crossing the Tiber.”
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thenobes
Guest
It has a double meaning. It referred of very old to the ancient Rome’s rule that no general was allowed to bring his troops into Rome (to threaten a coup) and doing so would necessitate “crossing the Tiber” river.
(I believe Julius Caesar did this in his assumption of Imperial command of Rome.) In any case, to do so was to irrevokably make a break with the then established laws of Rome and engender a death sentence for onself.
For catholic converts it has a meaning of making the final break from their former beliefs and putting their faith in obedience to the Catholic Church in communion with Rome that our Lord Jesus Christ founded and to which he gave His authority.
So generally it refers to someone who was once opposed to the Church but afterwards was convinced and changed willingly to commit his faith to its teachings.
peace
steve
That’s good, and I agree. My point is that there are those who profess a personal relationship and do so while also professing a no need for Church.
Jon
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AspiringServant
Guest
“Such is the will of God that we should have everything through Mary.”
~Saint Alphonsus Liguori~
“If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead.”
~Gregory of Nazianzus,To Cledonius,101(A.D. 382)~
“Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected. From this you may take your pattern of life, showing, as an example, the clear rules of virtue: what you have to correct, to effect, and to hold fast. The first thing which kindles ardour in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God?”
~ Saint Ambrose ~
“Whoever does not wish to have Mary Immaculate as his Mother will not have Christ as his Brother.”
~ Saint Maximillian Kolbe ~
“But the power of Mary over all the devils will especially shine forth in the latter times, when Satan will lay his snares against her heel: that is to say, her humble slaves and her poor children, whom she will raise up to make war against him. They shall be little and poor in the world’s esteem, and abased before all like the heel, trodden underfoot and persecuted as the heel is by the other members of the body. But in return for this they shall be rich in the grace of God, which Mary shall distribute to them abundantly. They shall be great and exalted before God in sanctity, superior to all other creatures by their lively zeal, and so well sustained with God’s assistance that, with the humility of their heel, in union with Mary, they shall crush the head of the devil and cause Jesus Christ to triumph.”
~ Saint Louis de Montfort ~True Devotion to Mary ~
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katholikos12
Guest
We must also be part of the Church as well. Saying we want a personal relationship with Him and not the Church, is like saying to a friend that you hate his wife.
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AspiringServant
Guest
Take out all the references to apostles and saints and Mary from the bible. What is left? Jesus teaches through His Divine Life and His relationships with people. He did not appear as a solitary philosopher providing volumes of philosophies.
Rather, the Word (the entirety of all including knowledge) was made flesh. Hence, the Church Father’s teaching that all Truth is contained in the Life of Christ, and that Holy Life became flesh in the womb of Mary Ever Virgin.
Therefore, contemplate the 1st joyful mystery as the fetus Jesus loving exchange with Mary and Mary’s ecstatic loving exchange for Jesus in the womb.
Yet, if you have not the taste to contemplate the 1st Joyful Mystery in this way, then you can go find St. John the Baptist and fast, pray and do penance in the desert.
No my dear one, you cannot contact Jesus in relationship but by relationships.
However, you may be referring to a Holy presence (neutral) experience of God which is usually first along the road we travel to meet the Person of Jesus Christ. Experiencing God in His Holy presence is one of the 5 or so ways which He encounters us and we encounters Him.
However, this is always the first step toward the highest plateau of the saints, namely Spousal love of God. All of the church’s bridal mystics are married to the Lord and encounter Him in the bridal chamber.
Therefore, the answer to your question is Yes. The Church clearly teaches that the only way to Jesus is through Mary and the saints.
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brb3
Guest
Well, as fully informed Catholics, having benefits of the fullest teaching of scripture…we KNOW that they are sorely mistaken…and have only Half of truth on this matter of ESSENTIAL NEED to be unified to Christ via his Body & Blood, only available in the Church!!
Christ never taught we are to be LONERANGER Christians.
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brb3
Guest
I fully recognize Mary as Mother of Christ, our Lord, and our Spiritual Mother, and FIRST among Saints.
Thats not in question.
I was not convinced on another matter he said, and asked for clarification of his claims.
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