"Catholic Church" first used in 325 at Nicea?

[Seraphim73]

That may be, but that is the etymology of “Catholic”, which is a good point when one gets the typical fundamentalist objection “Show me ‘Catholic’ in the Bible!”

That’s definitely true.

 

[Bayou_Catholic]

The problem I have seen with some RCIA and Religious Ed programs is that leaders who themselves hold the Catholic Faith faithfully, sometimes innocently depend on written materials that intentionally are open to misinterpretation. This often is reflected in assigning dates later than they should be. For instance, some materials suggest the early Church was a generic, egalitarian Christian community, where the whole community celebrated liturgy, and that the Scriptures “emerged” out of this community; but that after 325 or so the “Catholic Church”, as a hierarchical institution, developed, with a separate priest class, and laymen - and women - who in this newly identified (or invented) institutional “Catholic Church” were a little demoted.

I could see this as possibly being the case. This group certainly isn’t the type to push an agenda or go against the Church. More likely a dependence on inaccurate material than an agenda. The RCIA team has well established in its lessons (on pope, sacraments, Church hierarchy…) the continuity of faith as deposited to the Apostles from Christ. The assertion seemed to be that the term “Catholic Church” wasn’t used to identify the Church as distinguished from other titles until Nicaea. I think. Genesis315 brought up a good point too. They may have been attempting to make a particular point and I didn’t follow all the way. Either way, it has led me to dig a little deeper into the faith. From what I gather so far, it has been the “Catholic Church” since before St. Ignatius used it in 107A.D. Thanks for the perspective!

So that may be what the person in RCIA meant by pointing to Nicea, where the Catholic Church was differentiated from the heretical Arian groups which were not of the Catholic Church.

 

[Bayou_Catholic]

WElcome home to the Catholic Church. We are happy to see you here on CAF. I think you will be a great asset to our faith and an excellent teacher at some future date!

Thank you for the welcome & compliments! But, I’m a cradle Catholic. I attend RCIA with my wife who is discerning coming into the Church. I’m still very much a novice in sharing and defending the faith. I’ve only rediscovered my faith & the depths of what the Church has to offer a few years ago. I have learned a great deal following threads in CAF.

 

[Bayou_Catholic]

That may be, but that is the etymology of “Catholic”, which is a good point when one gets the typical fundamentalist objection “Show me ‘Catholic’ in the Bible!”

I’ll be adding this to my apologetics cheat sheet.

 

[commenter]

Thank you for the welcome & compliments! But, I’m a cradle Catholic. I attend RCIA with my wife who is discerning coming into the Church. I’m still very much a novice in sharing and defending the faith. I’ve only rediscovered my faith & the depths of what the Church has to offer a few years ago. I have learned a great deal following threads in CAF.

We are all novices, really.
Assume what they are presenting to you and your wife is probably accurate. And be grateful for the people who are giving up their time to assist this program. But be aware some publishers who formerly were reliably Catholic are not, anymore. On occasion handouts or Leaders’ Guides may reflect someone’s opinion, dressed up as Church teaching. Our bishop is wonderful, but some material that’s forwarded from diocesan offices seems to have a different view, or rather different priorities, than what he is teaching. Even sincere, believing Catholics sometimes pass on material or ideas that sounds ok, since it was written by a priest or nun, or comes from a Catholic-sounding publisher. Don’t be suspicious, but be aware that maybe 5% of the time there’s another agenda, that your teacher usually is not intending, but passing on what she got from some workshop, etc.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the single most important guide for the novice or the veteran in the Faith. Reading CAF posts can be informative (I spend too much time here myself!) but what we are getting is mostly responses and (good) clarification of issues that are currently on the minds of most people. In the Catechism you will find explanation of issues that are not currently on the minds of most people, but are important. CAF will get you good answers to your questions (so will the leaders of your RCIA group, I am sure); but you may not know what to ask. The Catechism offers the Faith in context.

 

[Bayou_Catholic]

We are all novices, really.
Assume what they are presenting to you and your wife is probably accurate. And be grateful for the people who are giving up their time to assist this program. But be aware some publishers who formerly were reliably Catholic are not, anymore. On occasion handouts or Leaders’ Guides may reflect someone’s opinion, dressed up as Church teaching. Our bishop is wonderful, but some material that’s forwarded from diocesan offices seems to have a different view, or rather different priorities, than what he is teaching. Even sincere, believing Catholics sometimes pass on material or ideas that sounds ok, since it was written by a priest or nun, or comes from a Catholic-sounding publisher. Don’t be suspicious, but be aware that maybe 5% of the time there’s another agenda, that your teacher usually is not intending, but passing on what she got from some workshop, etc.

I am certainly appreciative of their ministry; and I’ve learned a lot in the classes. This particular topic is one that I have delved into on my own in the recent past. My goal here was to dive a little deeper. Especially, since I’ve used the patristic writings of St. Ignatius and others to defend the Church from challenges of who founded the Catholic Church by fundamentalist friends. I wanted to make sure I was sharing accurate info.
Thanks for the advice. I tend to give others the benefit, but I will keep your advice about particular materials in mind.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the single most important guide for the novice or the veteran in the Faith. Reading CAF posts can be informative (I spend too much time here myself!) but what we are getting is mostly responses and (good) clarification of issues that are currently on the minds of most people. In the Catechism you will find explanation of issues that are not currently on the minds of most people, but are important. CAF will get you good answers to your questions (so will the leaders of your RCIA group, I am sure); but you may not know what to ask. The Catechism offers the Faith in context.

I could stand to spend more time in the Catechism than on the computer for sure. I’ve probably neglected it more than I should have during my “studies”.

 

[steve_b]

I recently attended a RCIA class in which it was proposed that the first use of the term “Catholic Church” was at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. This seems contrary to much of what I have learned and have shared with others. Granted, I am no scholar. I brought up the usage of “Catholic Church” in the patristic writings from the earlier centuries; and specifically focused on St. Ignatius’ letter to the Smyraeans.

One explanation I was provided was that the Council of Nicaea “ratified” its usage, making it official. I reviewed info on the council at Newadvent.org, but no mention of this ratification. I’m not sure if they equated the formulation of the Nicene Creed with a ratification of the usage of the words “Catholic Church” as a proper noun. I do not know much about the early Councils. Is this how the “Catholic Church” was first officially used by the Church? Are the letters of Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, and so forth using the “Catholic Church” unofficially or not in the same sense as Nicaea did? Did the Council of Nicaea “ratify” its usage?
newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

When I brought up the patristic writings, another team member asked if it was a translation I was using. And, that translators may have used the upper case “C” instead of the lower case “c”. This kind of threw me, because it sounds a lot like typical anti-Catholic, “Constantine started the Catholic Church” argumentation. But, then I thought “maybe this guy knows something I don’t”. Is there any merit to this thinking… a biased translation? Aren’t the “Catholic Church” & “catholic church” one in the same? My source for ECF writings is the “Faith Database” software.

The RCIA team is made up of good folks. They volunteer their time teaching others the faith; and do so with great charity. I’m not looking to challenge them or be critical of them. I would just like some clarification as the RCI lesson contradicted what I’ve learned elsewhere and what I share with others. I’d hate to be unwittingly sharing false info with others.

**#34 **open up all the internal links.

Irenaeus qualifies what he means by “The Church” so there is no doubt who he is talking about.

 

[steve_b]

That’s not really accurate.

“Αἱ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησίαι καθ᾿ ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ Γαλιλαίας καὶ Σαμαρείας”

“And in the Church through the whole of Judea, Galilee and Samaria.” It is really just describing location in this verse. St Ignatius used the term as an attribute for the Church.

The Church has been called the Catholic Church from the 1st century. The English word **Catholic **is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole. catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means

So one THEN can ask, where does **kata holos **ekklesia appear in scripture ?

Acts 9:31 the church throughout all ( ἐκκλησία,καθ’,ὅλης** ,**τῆς ),Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…" = the Kataholos Church.

 

[Bayou_Catholic]

#34 open up all the internal links.

Irenaeus qualifies what he means by “The Church” so there is no doubt who he is talking about.

Thanks! This was very helpful.

 

[Used2beSherryG]

Thank you for the welcome & compliments! But, I’m a cradle Catholic. I attend RCIA with my wife who is discerning coming into the Church. I’m still very much a novice in sharing and defending the faith. I’ve only rediscovered my faith & the depths of what the Church has to offer a few years ago. I have learned a great deal following threads in CAF.

Me, too. Cradle Catholic/cultural catholic who did not understand the faith, walked away for years until the Holy Spirit called me back. Since then, I cannot learn enough and cannot give thanks to God enough for this great gift of faith. So, I am now teaching RCIA, still learning a lot daily. Welcome home is very applicable for those entering the church the first time or rediscovering the truth. Someone else here said it best “We are all still learning”. Teaching RCIA doesn’t mean one is an expert on the faith by any means. It is truly a labor of love.

 

[Bayou_Catholic]

Me, too. Cradle Catholic/cultural catholic who did not understand the faith, walked away for years until the Holy Spirit called me back. Since then, I cannot learn enough and cannot give thanks to God enough for this great gift of faith. So, I am now teaching RCIA, still learning a lot daily. Welcome home is very applicable for those entering the church the first time or rediscovering the truth. Someone else here said it best “We are all still learning”. Teaching RCIA doesn’t mean one is an expert on the faith by any means. It is truly a labor of love.

I can appreciate what you are saying here. It feels good to be back!!! And, I am very grateful for those in the RCIA ministry.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Get used to seeing errors in RCIA. I’ve been attending RCIA this year as a sponsor. The instructor has a theology degree, but I still hear plenty of things that are not quite right. As long as I didn’t think he was teaching heresy, I would not worry about it. Everyone makes mistakes. No one knows everything.