Catholic Convert Issues

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davidfrapp

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Greetings everyone

I’m a Lutheran belonging to a European state church but I’m probably going to convert to catholicism soon. i have fallen in love with it and i no longer have any good arguments not to.
I just want to say I am DEEPLY DISCOURAGED by the lithurgical decline I’ve noticed when studying the catholic mass for quite some time. I am also discouraged by the division that this matter seem to have caused in the church; and it’s leaders SILENCE on this issue.
I had an awakening to the true presence of the Eucharist while watching a video of the Extraordinary form of the Latin rite. The bells, the vestments and the huge amounts of incense seem appropriate to me if there really is a true presence.
In my country there’s about 116 000 Catholics out of 10 million. I can’t really go church hoping to find a church that ”does it right”. If i wanted to celebrare a latin mass I’d have to travel about an hour by train.
Don’t get me wrong, i don’t question the validity of the New mass, i just question the way it’s beeing done in many cases.

Any encouraging words or news about this topic?
Peace be with you
 
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Well, my 2cents:

If one truly believes int he True PResence, then what we hold in our hearts and minds is what matters.
If a parish cannot afford all the finery, or you are in a hospital chapel without all the “smells and bells” you surely are receiving Christ Body Blood Soul and Divinity, and these things, these appointments become secondary.

Worship the Lord.
Worship Him in holy attire.
Let the rest of it go.
No amount of fancy things is going to get you to heaven, but receiving worthily, and praying with great love in the Mass for your family, the people around you, the parish community. THAT is what we do when we attend Mass. We meet HIm at the altar…all of us in varying degrees of our flawed state.

Make sure the must-haves are there:

Is the priest holy, kind, intelligent, nurturing, a good shepherd?
Then you are good to go.
Does the parish need things to have the Mass done well? Ask the priest what he needs, and help the parish to fund what needs to be obtained.

Otherwise, do not get hung up on stuff.

Welcome home. I hope you end up in a very fine parish.
 
There was a time before the extraordinary form, there will certainly be a time after.

That said;

I know how you feel. I’m a “new mass” kinda guy, but the older form between the two is more beautiful.

Can’t wait to have you as a brother in the Church!
 
Just interested: where are you from?

Well, one hour. I drive 1 hour to see a catholic church at all 😉
 
davidfrapp said:
Any encouraging words or news about this topic?
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My encouraging words are that the early Christians celebrated in houses, tombs, and on the run from the Romans. They didn’t have vestments per se, bells, incense, huge churches, fancy furnishings, Gregorian chant, etc.

They had what made sense in their time and place.

The Church is universal. The Church reaches back through the ages and forward into the future. Don’t get caught up on any perceived “issues” in one day or age.

There are many people who love the organ and lament it when a church doesn’t use an organ. BUT, those same people who fret about “innovation” and use of “guitar” or “piano” forget what a scandal the organ was in its day. It was a secular instrument used in bawdy plays and secular entertainment and there are many church documents you can find condemning its use in church. UNTIL, culture and times changes and sacred music was composed on the organ, and then it became so integral that now people complain when it’s not used.

So, my bottom line is don’t sweat the small stuff. Things change. We don’t want to lose Tradition, but tradition with a small “t” has a lot of room under its big tent.

Go to the Latin Mass when you can if you enjoy it, but the mass right in front of you is no less real than that other one an hour away.
 
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Well, you’ll probably hear a lot of how you shouldn’t be relying on feelings and that if you are overly ‘attached’ to smells and bells you’re in danger of becoming a toxic trad, whereas if you go to the OF with an open mind, even if it’s with Father Tie-Dye, the Tom Hansen liturgical dancers, everybody up around the altar at the consecration, and sermons to the left of Hilary Clinton, that ‘the only thing that matters is that it’s the Mass. Cast off any idea of your personal preferences and be open’.

Of course, the fact is that 99.9% of the people telling you to jettison your personal preferences are going to a Mass that satisfies all THEIR personal preferences.
And asking them to go to a Mass that does not (the idea, for example, of their attending an EF or that, horrors, more EFs become available) turns into, “But the EFs were HORRIBLE, I hated them, I want to keep the OF I love”.

Hmm, ironic, no?

It’s like a bunch of people who adore beer but dislike wine telling you (who dislike beer and prefer wine) that if you don’t choose to 'jettison your personal preferences and drink the beer and shut up! rather than looking for and foistering places where you and others who also like wine can go, that you’re ‘unfair to beer’, a ‘wine snob’, rigid, elitist, etc. etc. .
 
Don’t worry about how you FEEL, worry about what is TRUE.
 
Hello friend.

I was baptized and raised in the Lutheran Church (in the United States). The Lutheran liturgy is similar in a way (I always say you can’t compare anything to the beauty of the Catholic Church, but in terms of other denominations, the Lutheran Church is relatively close).

The word of advice I would offer would be to seek the truth. The Catholic Church is the one and only true church, no matter how many times the people in it may be disappointing you.

If I wanted to belong to a church that I liked, I’d become an evangelical protestant because I love their worship and fervor. BUT (and it’s an important but) if I want the true church, I’m going to follow the Catholic Church.

The truth is in the Catholic Church and her teachings, irregardless of how many of her followers are misinterpreting or refusing to follow her beauty.

God bless.
 
I am swedish, the state church separate from the acctual state in 2000. It has many different branches to it but the large mainline is very liberal
 
Thanks everyone for your answers, appriciate you taking your time.

I do agree with those of you that tell me my feels dont matter. At the same time, beeing a theology student, i know that the liturgy acctually has a educational dimension to it aswell. For example: when the lutheran state church formed in Sweden they stoped practicing the elevantion of the host. This made the reverence for the eucharist disappear over time.
It is for the same reason the Catholic church started practicing eucharistic adoration.
 
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I think following Jesus requires us to cast aside our personal preferences in general. I speak as a convert of nearly 7 years; in that time, I have learned that God, in His infinite wisdom, knows far better what is good for me than I do.

People who think you’re in danger of becoming a “toxic trad” are probably not saying this because of your liturgical preferences, but because of your refusal to submit to divine providence. St. Bernard says, “Whence comes disquiet, except that we follow self-will?” St. Alphonsus has quoted this saying a few times as well.
 
Have you heard of Pope Leo XIII’s vision in 1884? You can read about it here. The 100 year test

Cthompson has a point. The Church may be supernatural, but it’s run by men. Men are fallible. Men can mislead. Men can be corrupt. Men can sin.

Wherever you feel the Catholic Church is most true and God is most reverently worshiped, go there. Even if it is an hour away. I might be going to a Latin mass that’s an hour away too if I move back to my hometown soon.
 
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Personal preferences are fine to have. That is the reason why some people go to Catholic parish X rather than go to Catholic parish Z when they are both in the same city. However, I think what people are trying to say is that when you let your personal preferences be the only thing that you concern yourself with then you could be in trouble. I personally like to have all the smells and bells too which is why I travel 50 minutes to the Latin Mass every Sunday. Do I think the OF is horrible? No, nor do I think it is illicit. Christ in the Eucharist is there just as much as he is in Latin Mass I go to. I personally get more edification with TLM than with the OFs around my area. There is a family that goes to the Latin Mass with us that travels an hour and a half. Every Sunday and some Fridays. Basically, you won’t be alone travelling a long ways.
 
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Just remember Jesus is at Mass with the clergy in the Sistine Chapel at the Vatican, and in an outdoor slum district Mass in a third world country.

Same Jesus, same Eucharist.
 
stpurl said:
Of course, the fact is that 99.9% of the people telling you to jettison your personal preferences are going to a Mass that satisfies all THEIR personal preferences.
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Been to plenty that didn’t, honestly. When you don’t have a car for a long period of time you learn to go to what you’ve got.
stpurl said:
whereas if you go to the OF with an open mind, even if it’s with Father Tie-Dye, the Tom Hansen liturgical dancers, everybody up around the altar at the consecration, and sermons to the left of Hilary Clinton, that ‘the only thing that matters is that it’s the Mass. Cast off any idea of your personal preferences and be open’.
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I think there’s an important distinction to be drawn between liturgical abuses that are clearly outside the rubrics, and those that are within the rubrics but not one’s personal preferences. Orthodoxy is of primary importance. At no point should the homily contradict the sure teaching of the Church.
Secondarily, the prescribed rubrics and directives of the local bishop ought to be followed. If either of those are missing I would seriously try to find another parish.

I would also have reservations about anything that seriously reveals a disrespect for the sacredness of the Mass. That said, I would take care to discern between something that’s not how you would show respect, and something that is inherently disrespectful.

As far as personal preference, it’s fine to have them, but it’s best not to get too attached.
 
As a 73 year old lifetime Catholic, one who has been VERY active in he Church for more than 30 years; I too an saddened by the decrease in attendance.

However that is irrelevant as MASS is ALL about God, and not about us. We can and we DO encounter Our GOD personally and “face to face” here on earth in Catholic Holy Communion, which is the Sum and the SUMMIT not only of Catholicism; but actually of ALL Christianity, because it is REALLY Jesus Christ in Person.

It is THAT reality that should .and IS sufficient to simply dismiss all other concerns; not that we should completely ignore them; but only not permit any distractions sway our own Active Participation of our GOD centered Divine Worship.

God REMAINS in charge., and that ought to be sufficient for us,

God Bless you, PRAY very much
Patrick
 
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