Catholic Miracles - LDS view?

[Jerusha]

Masons are not Catholic!!!

Father LeFevere’s residence was in Missouri. There is, however, no doubt but that earlier than that year he visited the scattered Catholics in McDonough and neighboring counties.

macomb.com/~ilmcdono/Churches/CathCh.html

The Indians in the area were peaceable people, who had even declined to follow BlackHawk’s oppositional foray into Northern Illinois and Southern Wisconsin. They were NOT involved–

 

[ForeverAdam]

Tom,

Thanks for the link to your discussion on the FAIR forum and your thoughts on this one. It seems like your view on the retroactive atonement doesn’t really mesh with what I’ve been taught regarding “spirit prison.” I thought that deceased LDS are to serve as missionaries to these souls in prison. Such a thing would prohibit unconverted souls from already being in paradise, wouldn’t it? The Encloypedia of Mormonism says in its entry, “Spirit Prison”: “In Latter-day Saint doctrine the ‘spirit prison’ is both a condition and a place within the postearthly spirit world. One ‘imprisons’ himself or herself through unbelief or through willful disobedience of God” (Encyclopedia, Vol 3 - “Spirit Prison”).

As for the Eucharistic Miracles in the Church, I still think these cannot be explained away without doing harm to either the Catholic or LDS position. If God truly is sending Catholics these miracles then he is confirming their faith in the Catholic Church as the “one true Church” and greatly decreasing the possibility of their conversion to the CoJCoLDS. This means that when they hear of the LDS message they will reject it.

Mormonism affirms that while ordinances done by proxy for the deceased can give them a chance at exalation, it is also understood that this chance at exalation only applies to those souls who never had a chance to properly respond to the Gospel, not those who, for whatever reason, chose to reject it. Of course, all souls would have a chance to receive baptism and the Holy Ghost by proxy, but the higher ordinances of priesthood and sealing would only be able to be effective for the souls who never had a chance to receive the LDS Church. Am I not correct?

And if God is keeping the Catholics out of the LDS through these Eucharistic Miracles and such then isn’t God keeping them from the chance at exaltation (since they would be knowingly rejecting the LDS Gospel)? Besides, there are many other ways God can confirm the faith of a Catholic instead of giving them such faith-promoting miracles, IMO.

I do have a question about your “higher” vs. “lower” paradigm(s). At the end of the day when Catholics die, do you not believe that they will have to “bend their knee”, as it were, and accept the LDS faith as the higher paradigm in order to gain exaltation, or would they get to bypass that?

Also, may you provide me with a list of the major reasons you believe the CofJCoLDS is a “higher” paradigm than the Catholic Church? (You can send them to me via e-mail or private message, if you want.) Thanks again!

In Christ,

Adam

 

[Jerusha]

Maybe part of the problem is that LDS resent the fact that Mormon properties in Nauvoo were sold to the Catholic Church after the Mormons left?

 

[TOmNossor]

stillsearching:

So the 64,000 dollar question here Tom is if Joseph Smith were alive today would he be living with the LDS or the FLDS as the FLDS see the LDS as apostate? Remember the FLDS practice the same way Smith did and the LDS do not. They have modified his religion.

Actually, the question is not what would Joseph Smith do, but what would God have me do.

That being said, I think Joseph Smith would be a member of the CoJCoLDS AND God would have me do the same.

RLDS: As nice as it would be to suggest that Joseph Smith had nothing to do with Polygamy I cannot (although it is somewhat possible Joseph Smith did not have Polygamous relations). In addition to this, I believe the “keys” were in the hands of the 12. Though Joseph likely wanted Hyrum (who was also killed) to be his immediate successor and Joseph III to be a successor, this did not happen in my opinion.

The FLDS church separated from the authority that was most evident from 1890-1910. I see no evidence that God reestablished his authority among the FLDS.

There is a non-Christian group and a small splinter group [largely consisting of LDS (although I understand there are some Catholics)] that I believe have a stronger position than the RLDS or FLDS. But, I suspect I would be Catholic if I become convinced that the CoJCoLDS was not God’s path for me (and had no other information than I currently possess).

And before you get too excited about RLDS/FLDS/LDS you might think of Protestants/Catholics. If that is not close enough to home, how about sedavacantists/SSPXers/Catholics. And I personally would suggest that the US Catholic Bishops in many instances are farther from Rome than the SSPX folks.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

But there were few Catholics in the area at the time. Some say that they were the Masons, others say that it was the lawless element that the Mormons attracted into the area-- I believe that hypothesis, based on his last letter to Gov. Ford. It may even been the result of a power struggle between Joe and family, and Brigham Young’s group.

Thomas Sharp’s writings immediately after the event vindicate him, I think. I do think his inflammatory writings contributed to the situation, however.
Certainly I have great compassion for JS. He was the wrong person to have been targeted for death. However, his death did prevent a minor civil war.

Pertinent to my particular suggestion (which was mentioned at the recent Library of Congress Symposium BTW) is not what reality was, but what LDS perceptions were. I suggest that the CoJCoLDS physically and theologically (through emphasis not through binding changes) departed from those who they perceived killed Joseph Smith. They went to Utah, but also emphasized away from the doctrines espoused by the perceived killers. This resulted in a threeness emphasis at the expense of a oneness of God. This resulted in … This also contributed to a more grand and bold emphasis upon the Apostasy.

Charity, TOm

 

[Jerusha]

Thank you for your perceptions on the subject.

 

[Jerusha]

Whoah!! I just read the rest of the McDonough county Catholic history.

The next was Rev. John George Alleman. Father Alleman is still remembered by the oldest settlers. He was a most learned and pious, but funny man. Although a Frenchman, the writer never met an Irishman who could excel him in wit and practical good humor. He loved the writer as a son, and the missionary spirit he infused into him in early years by example and instruction braced him up against every impediment to develop the good work he and others began. Father Alleman’s residence was at Fort Madison, Iowa, and his labors in McDonough and neighboring counties covered the time the Mormons were in Nauvoo. Strange to relate, Joseph Smith and the leading Mormons, at all times professed the greatest respect and friendship for the big French priest, as they called him. Father Alleman once related to the writer that he had no means of getting across the Mississippi river to attend a sick Catholic in McDonough county, but the Mormons, having made known to Joseph Smith that the priest wished to cross, the latter not only had him ferried over, but furnished him a conveyance to the sick man. Smith telling Father Alleman that next to the Mormons, the Catholics were the best of all religions. “For,” continued Smith, “the priests attend to their people faithfully and mind their own business, whereas the other preachers are continually bothering the Latter Day Saints.” Father Alleman wittily remarked with thanks, “there was a diversity of opinion on that subject.” Father Alleman died of apoplexy in the Sisters’ hospital in St. Louis, September 10, 1866.

 

[ForeverAdam]

When I read accounts like that of Smith, I’m cannot help but smile. Despite his doctrinal shortcomings, I think the man had a good heart. I really do. I think all people would see that if they read personal accounts of him.

In Christ,

Adam

 

[stillsearching]

TOmNossor:

Actually, the question is not what would Joseph Smith do, but what would God have me do.

That being said, I think Joseph Smith would be a member of the CoJCoLDS AND God would have me do the same.

RLDS: As nice as it would be to suggest that Joseph Smith had nothing to do with Polygamy I cannot (although it is somewhat possible Joseph Smith did not have Polygamous relations). In addition to this, I believe the “keys” were in the hands of the 12. Though Joseph likely wanted Hyrum (who was also killed) to be his immediate successor and Joseph III to be a successor, this did not happen in my opinion.

And before you get too excited about RLDS/FLDS/LDS you might think of Protestants/Catholics. If that is not close enough to home, how about sedavacantists/SSPXers/Catholics. And I personally would suggest that the US Catholic Bishops in many instances are farther from Rome than the SSPX folks.

Charity, TOm

Exactly my point and exactly why I am interested in the FLDS. I’m not interested in the Protestants right now for they have changed beyond recognition from where they first started ot object. Lutheranism is only a vestige of what it started with. But the SSPX ers do fall somewhat in the same category as the FLDS as they have been called on the carpet for remaining with extremem traditionalist ways. Therefore, by looking at the SSPX, one can get a better idea of what did come before.
I hope the same thing will happen with the FLDS. By their posting here I can get a better idea of what LDS was really like in the beginning as opposed to the PC version put out in Salt Lake City.

 

[Jerusha]

When I read accounts like that of Smith, I’m cannot help but smile. Despite his doctrinal shortcomings, I think the man had a good heart. I really do. I think all people would see that if they read personal accounts of him.

Exactly.

“For,” continued Smith, “the priests attend to their people faithfully and mind their own business, whereas the other preachers are continually bothering the Latter Day Saints.” Father Alleman wittily remarked with thanks, “there was a diversity of opinion on that subject.”

I think, that since Fr. Alleman was stationed in Ft. Madison, his primary responsibility was the Sac & Fox in the area, and he had trouble with the Mormons’ intruding on that situation. I waas looking for “Joseph Smith Preaching to the Lamanites” Could somebody post that, please? Take a look at the body language of the Indians in that picture.

Hang on a bit. I’m going to look for more info.

 

[Jerusha]

In 1841 Bishop Loras appointed Fr. Alleman pastor of Fort Madison, Iowa, where he immediately began the construction of a small brick church for eight Catholic families. By 1851, the congregation had grown to over 100 families.

 "My headquarters are in St. Joseph's Church in Fort Madison, but I travel around Burlington, Muscatine, Iowa City, West Point, Keokuk and almost anywhere German speaking Catholics have settled in Iowa, Northern Missouri or Western Illinois" stated Fr. Alleman.  His knowledge of languages made him a valuable asset, but also valuable was his fair treatment of the Indians.

 The broad familiar Teutonic face of the Alsatian priest was a beacon to numerous settlers.  His lone torn black cassock, broad brimmed hat, his fruitful gardens, his universal charity and his constant need for money were subjects for gossip.  Protestants, Catholics, Mormons and Indians recognized his leadership in time of fire, flood or tornado.  They respected his good judgment in selecting choice places for promising and substantial settlers.  Fr. Alleman worked side-by-side with parishioners.  On many fall days, he could be found on an island in the Mississippi cutting firewood for the church

allemanhighschool.org/about_us/fralleman.shtml
A VERY interesting biography.

 

[Jerusha]

He was named Pastor at Collinsville, Illinois, but mental and physical conditions grew worse. He was admitted to St. Vincent’s Sanatorium in St. Louis in 1863 - diagnosis was melancholia (depression). However, his breakdown more likely resulted from excessive labor, travel, and heavy responsibilities.

Probably always wondering if he could have done better with the Mormon situation.

 

[Jerusha]

June 30, 1847. Whole No. ?
http://www.lavazone2.com/dbroadhu/OH/mastspc2.gif

---

THE MORMON TEMPLE. – This celebrated ediface has been sold to a committee of the Catholic church for $75,000. This community have also purchased other property at Nauvoo. The building is to be appropriated to educational purposes, connected with the church into whose hands it has passed. The contract requires only the sanction of the Bishop to complete it. The last of the Mormons in Nauvoo, consisting of thirty or forty families under charge of Daniel H. Wells, have left Nauvoo, to join the California expedition. Babbit & Co. still remain at Nauvoo, to close up the affairs of the Mormons. – These facts are stated in the Warsaw Signal. St. Louis Rep.

lavazone2.com/dbroadhu/OH/paintel6.htm

 

[papist1]

was speaking with a wonderful priest(presbyter,elder) of the catholic church today about a miracle brought about by the baptism of a newborn and the pryers accompanying that child from the direction of God through this priest and his congregation.

the baby was but a few days old, getting baptized that day because the baby needed surgery. they found a hole in its heart, the heart was on the right hand side of the infants chest and had a shriveled up lung.

the priest prayed for the baby by name in mass with his congregation and then heard that they cancelled the surgery for three days, then went in on thursday.
The doctors apologized to the family after the surgery. They said that there were no longer any of the problems seen prior to surgery and that everything was normal. they said the only thing that was in need of help was a few intestines were still bound together and they simply seperated them. the doctors confirmed that this was a miracle, and that nothing else could explain it.

I was able to go to confession with this priest, right there in the Cathjolic bookstore i met him at today! praise God for the sacrament of reconciliation and the sacrament of baptism and the anointing of the sick done by the true priests of God!

allelujah.

 

[ForeverAdam]

Papist,

Amen! That was an inspiring report. Thank God for miracles.

And how nice it is to have a Church whose priests truly function as the representatives of Jesus to a sick and dying world. How nice it is to have priests who truly do the most excellent work of a priest, namely offer sacrifice, yea, even the greatest of all the sacrifices, the “unspotted oblation” prophesied by St. Malachi.

In Christ,

Adam

 

[papist1]

i look at the interpretive rendition of an elder in the lds church and the actual type of elder(priest) in the church that has been here and visible for almost 2000 yrs and cannot compare the two.

one set is sent out for a few years, many times pressured or expected to go reluctantly, and do their “time” after graduating from high school.
and the other set that is truly called, and others who take years discerning that calling to the vocation of the priesthood and service for life to God and others. These men who give their lives frequently for Christ and His one Church. These are not 6 day warriors with a two or three yr obligation,but men who have truly been called out to sacrifice themselves, as Christ for us on this earth, bringing us the Bread of Life!

I like to speak about moral theology with these young men who have not even begun to learn about it nor are even old enough nor have enough experience to understand it.
Oh well, it certainly will all clear up in the end

 

[Vidar]

TOmNossor:

However, God loves His Catholic children and until He chooses to call them to a higher form (which may never happen because Justification/Sanctification can occur in lower forms) He will provide for the miraculous so as to help foster faith.

I know a person who is still (on paper) a member of the mormon church. She cannot leave because her husband has told her that he will divorce her if she does. But she believes in the Catholic Church. Knowing the problem, the Catholic Church allowed her to be baptized and confirmed without being enrolled into the Church membership lists. It is illegal to be a member of two religions in my contry.

She has not been to the mormon church for atleast ten years, but she goes to mass every day when she is able (and her husband is furious with her for it).

When they were on a vacation last summer, she was unable to go to mass for nearly two weeks due to her husbands anti Catholicism. When she finally had the oppurtunity, she cried through the whole mass for the joy of finally being able to attend. When she left the church she sat down on a bench, wanting to put on sunglasses to hide her eyes that were red from tears. To her amazement she discovered that her left palm (in which she received communion) was full of blood. As were the fingertips of her right hand (which she used to put the host into the mouth). There was no wound on her body, nor any blood on her clothes or purse, even though there should have been. She even tasted it, and indeed, it was blood. But when she rubbed her hands together it was gone, without a trace.

She did not at first understand where the blood came from. But later it dawned on her.

EXPLAIN:

Why would God allow a former temple mormon to experiece the miracle of a bleeding host, since this person has moved from a “higher form of worship” (mormonism) to a “lower form” (Catholicism)? Especially given the fact that she is still (on paper) a mormon? And why would he want to confirm the “false” doctrine of the real presense instead of leading her back home to the “higher” form of worship found only in mormonism? Could it be that mormonism isn’t a higher form of worship after all, but a lower?

I, who am also a former mormon, have seen a miracle of healing after having asked the blessed virgin Mary to intercede for a person. The healing was instant and the doctors had no explanation for what occured.

Again, why would God do this? Especially given the fact that praying to Mary (or Jesus for that matter) is in mormon theology sinful?

 

[ForeverAdam]

Vidar:

Again, why would God do this?

A few days ago I was thinking about this very topic. If, indeed, God is permitting these Eucharistic Miracles, then He is keeping people out of the LDS church. If these miracles are true there is no way I’d leave the Church. Why? Because it would be the greatest sin ever to trade in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist for a concept or mere belief about Him. And, as much as the LDS try to claim that they are a “unique” faith, they still cannot give any more than a nice thought, memory or belief of the Savior instead of his Real Presence. They fall into the same ole Protestant trap of replacing sacramental reality with shadows, types and concepts.

In Christ,

Adam

 

[PaulDupre]

TOmNossor:

BTW, where would you say that Joseph Smith said, “the priesthood authority was totally lost in Christianity?” I would be fine with this, but I would also be interested in seeing what you are referring too.

In one of Joseph Smith’s later versions of his ordination to the Aaronic priesthood, as recorded in the D&C, he reports the words of John the Baptist:

“Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness” (D&C 13)

According to JS, or John the Baptist if you’re a TBM, the priesthood had previously been “taken from the earth” - i.e.: totally lost.

Grace to you Tom,
Paul