Catholic philosopher: Why I signed the open letter accusing Pope Francis of

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‘If we have been given to see a wolf in shepherd’s clothing, we are expected to do something about it.’

Seeing this warning attached, I cannot help wondering if we can get these philosophers and theologians to take off their shepherd’s outfits and stop trying to be pastors. They are not very good at it, as this letter attests. Their complaints are not the nudges from a good shepherd, but snarls tearing at the fabric of the Church.
 
You might want to check out the original thread,
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Catholic philosopher: Why I Signed the Open Letter Accusing Pope Francis of Heresy Catholic News
Many people have been asking: What’s the good of taking a step like this? Will it not further polarize the situation? Will it not offer excuses to the Bergoglio party to intensify their confinement and persecution of Catholics? Is it not overwhelmingly likely to be ignored? Can anyone do anything about a wayward pope—mustn’t we just wait until God sorts it out for us? And besides, aren’t the signatories lacking in sufficient theological qualifications?
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I recommend viewing this:


These are traditional Catholics who explain quite ably why a pronouncement of heresy is problematic. They are no fans of Pope Francis, be warned, but they’re Catholic philosophers who sift through the open letter.
 
It’s threads like this which sometimes tells me to remove myself from this forum

Jim
 
I implore you to study Catholic history and not make false accusations against me while misinterpreting scripture. There have been popes who were denounced as heretical by their successors. I don’t think you understand papal infallibility. Unless Pope Francis speaks ex Cathedra, which he has not, he is not infallible. Heresy is the teaching against Catholic doctrine. If a pope said that Jesus was just a man would you believe him and falsely accuse people who claim heresy of trying to poison the faith of children?
 
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Bushum said:
I implore you to study Catholic history and not make false accusations against me while misinterpreting scripture. There have been popes who were denounced as heretical by their successors. I don’t think you understand papal infallibility. Unless Pope Francis speaks ex Cathedra, which he has not, he is not infallible. Heresy is the teaching against Catholic doctrine. If a pope said that Jesus was just a man would you believe him and falsely accuse people who claim heresy of trying to poison the faith of children?
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No matter how much Catholic history I study, I could never regard myself qualified to accuse a Pope of heresy or error. If I have questions about something that confuses me that the Pope may have said, I address that to my Bishop.

Popes that have been denounced as heretical by their successors are not Popes who are denounced as heretical by their flock while they are teaching them.

I certainly do understand infallibility. I know it has become a buzzword for modern day Catholics in order to justify personal dissension. I believe that as a priestly people we are obliged to contribute of our “gifts according to the grace given us.” (Rom 12:6) but as neither a Pope or prophet, taking it upon myself to denounce a Pope is heretical in itself.
Bushum said:
If a pope said that Jesus was just a man would you believe him
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If the Pope in communion with the college of Bishops, taught some new way of understanding Jesus human and divine nature, yes I would accept with faith because I believe that the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error.
 
Bushum said:
I implore you to study Catholic history
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Massimo Faggioli, a well-known professor of historical theology at Villanova University in the United States, said the letter was an example of the extreme polarisation in the Church.

“There is overwhelming support for Francis in the global Church on one side, and a tiny fringe of extremists trying to paint Francis as a pope who is heretic. The problem is that there is very little legitimate, constructive critique of Francis’ pontificate and his theology,”

 
I’ve been alive long enough to recognise this question as just an old time worn conundrum repackaged for use by an agenda driven faction.

It evokes the same experience as the conundrum “What if they are correct and there is no God?”.

“What if they are correct and we cannot trust that the papacy is protected by the Holy Spirit from error?”
 
Bushum said:
I implore you to study Catholic history and not make false accusations against me while misinterpreting scripture. There have been popes who were denounced as heretical by their successors. I don’t think you understand papal infallibility. Unless Pope Francis speaks ex Cathedra, which he has not, he is not infallible. Heresy is the teaching against Catholic doctrine. If a pope said that Jesus was just a man would you believe him and falsely accuse people who claim heresy of trying to poison the faith of children?
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At the time of the Arian heresy we had a large section of Christendom precisely accusing the Popes of heresy because the Popes differed from what they (wrongly) thought was orthodox and correct teaching about the nature of Christ. Same at the time of the Great Schism between Orthodox and Catholic, though the differences were on other major issues. Same at the time of the Reformation, on no less an issue than the Eucharist among others . On all occasions they were, bluntly, wrong.
 
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Catholics must be respectful of the legitimate religious preferences and practices of their fellow Catholics.
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I think this would exclude posts calling the Pope a heretic.

Are you really surprised that Catholics would find attacks on the Pope offensive? What do you expect?
 
If a person follows erroneous teaching from Pope or bishop etc. the guilt is on the teacher, not the follower.

Of course it would be better to follow the truth, but faith in the rightful teacher counts for something, even if the teacher errs.
Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Matthew 18:6
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If the Pope taught something without the backing of the college of Bishops and the CDF, ie not in communion with the Magisterium, then fair enough, I would not see dissent by the faithful as destroying faith in the Church. Take though the accusations about Amoris Laetitia which was issued as authentic Magisterium. This is with the blessing of ‘the college’. If those ‘experts’ have no issue with it, how are we to have faith in this separate faction calling for the Popes denunciation as a heretic? What is it that would justify a Catholic rejecting the Magisterium and believing in a ‘faction’? I believe completely that by doing that we are undermining our very Catholic identity.
 
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I think this is a respected opinion and I would not argue against it. The only trouble is that no one can judge the Pope to be heretic while he is alive; he is the Pope, and even a council canot make that judgment without the Pope agreeing, so …

What is at stake here is faith in ecclesiastical authority. If you say the Pope ceases to be Pope if he reaches heresy, you have essentially negated any reason to have faith in him. But we are called to a religious submission of the mind and heart even to non infallible teaching. We are called to listen with respect, not measure every word looking for heresy.

That is my opinion. Maybe I believe faith in the Church is more important than having every word 100% correct. That could be wrong.
 
I do not believe there is anything that can make a pope cease to be pope aside from death and resignation. A pope can be declared anathema by one of his successors only.
 
Pope Francis is the one who has been encouraging Catholics to follow their conscience, well, maybe the signers of this petition did just that. If they want to accuse the Pope of heresy, who am I to judge? Maybe the “God of surprises” willed this to happen.
 
Dovekin said:
Catholics must be respectful of the legitimate religious preferences and practices of their fellow Catholics.
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Can we at least agree on the definition of heresy? Heresy is teaching that is contrary to dogma. Therefore if a pope teaches something contrary to dogma he is teaching a heresy. I am trying to defend church dogma and am being attacked. You think it’s justified because it is not in line with your thinking.

I am not attacking the pope. I did not call him a heretic I said some of the things he teaches fall into heresy, perhaps it’s unintentional. Regardless of the intention you can not change the definition of a word because you don’t like it. There is no denying that popes have been declared anathema by their successors for teaching heresies. It is undisputed church history. I am also not suggesting anything be done. As I posted above nothing and no one can depose a pope.
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