Catholic Prayers and Traditions V Bible

[Zeno11]

There are a couple of things that have always puzzled me since childhood and which have never been satisfactorily explained to me. I am hoping some of you can shed some light please.

The Bible clearly states that heaven and earth shall pass away:
’Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away…’ Revelation 21:1-2 and

‘Heaven and earth will pass away, but my word will not pass away’ Matt 24:35

Why then do we say ’ as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end’?

One other thing:
Why do we receive ash on our foreheads on Ash Wednesday in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus when he said:
“And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have had their reward’.
Matt 6:16

Any explanations?

 

[andreashofer]

There are a couple of things that have always puzzled me since childhood and which have never been satisfactorily explained to me. I am hoping some of you can shed some light please.

The Bible clearly states that heaven and earth shall pass away:
’Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away…’ Revelation 21:1-2 and

‘Heaven and earth will pass away, but my word will not pass away’ Matt 24:35

Why then do we say ’ as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end’?

One other thing:
Why do we receive ash on our foreheads on Ash Wednesday in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus when he said:
“And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have had their reward’.
Matt 6:16

Any explanations?

The “world without end” is not only referred to the nature of the flesh, but of the spirit also.

The nature of my spirit (in Christ) is supposed to use my flesh (of Adam) for Gods glory, nevertheless I will loose the flesh when I die.

The flesh and the spirit are reality and therefore belong to the whole creation.

I am a creature of God and exist in the world that is without end, whether on earth, hell (God forbid), heaven or whatever God has prepared for me who love him in truth. Jesus promised paradise to the thief on the cross and promised his kingdom to the poor.

When I die, I will not care about the earth anymore, but only about the souls, that live on the earth, in purgatory and in heaven. Therefore, the earth and heaven will pass away, but the universe (one word) not.

St. Paul: Eyes have not seen, ears have not heard, nor has it entered into the heart of men, what God has prepared for those who love him.

 

[DavidFilmer]

One other thing:
Why do we receive ash on our foreheads on Ash Wednesday in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus when he said:
“And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have had their reward’.
Matt 6:16

The “disfigurement” that Jesus talks about is not ashes - it is forming your face into an expression of suffering. Ashes are a sign of penance, not fasting (though the two often go together). Jesus said, “If the miracles worked in you had taken place in Tyre and Sidon, they would have reformed in sackcloth and ashes long ago (Matthew 11:21)”

 

[DavidFilmer]

There are a couple of things that have always puzzled me since childhood… Why then do we say ’ as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end’

Did you, by chance, spend your childhood in an Anglican (Episcopal, etc) church (as I did)? “World without end” is a particularly (traditional) Anglican translation of in saecula saeculorum (it originates from from Thomas Cranmer’s Book of Common Prayer, and is found in the 1928 Anglican BCP, but not the 1979 or 2003 reformed edition).

The Catholic Church (worldwide) has never used such a translation (though it was used for a short time in Catholic rites in British territory). The traditional translation was “Both now and always, and unto the ages of ages.”

The more modern translation (used by the Catholic Church worldwide, as well as most Anglicans) is “as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever.”

FWIW, Google Translate renders in saecula saeculorum as “for ever and ever.” There is certinaly no mention of “orbi” (which means ‘world’). Cranmer was right out.

 

[Zeno11]

Did you, by chance, spend your childhood in an Anglican (Episcopal, etc) church (as I did)? “World without end” is a particularly (traditional) Anglican translation of in saecula saeculorum (it originates from from Thomas Cranmer’s Book of Common Prayer, and is found in the 1928 Anglican BCP, but not the 1979 or 2003 reformed edition).

The Catholic Church (worldwide) has never used such a translation (though it was used for a short time in Catholic rites in British territory). The traditional translation was “Both now and always, and unto the ages of ages.”

The more modern translation (used by the Catholic Church worldwide, as well as most Anglicans) is “as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever.”

FWIW, Google Translate renders in saecula saeculorum as “for ever and ever.” There is certinaly no mention of “orbi” (which means ‘world’). Cranmer was right out.

No, I was brought up in a devout Irish Catholic family! The prayer I was thinking of was 'Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be,* world without end*, Amen

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

‘World without end’ is a weird translation of *eis tous aionas ton aionon * or et in saecula saeculorum, which means ‘and in the ages of ages.’

So "'Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As it was in the beginning, both now, and always, and to the ages of ages. Amen. " is a better translation of the doxology.

 

[DavidFilmer]

No, I was brought up in a devout Irish Catholic family! The prayer I was thinking of was 'Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be,* world without end*, Amen

Yes, that’s the lesser Doxology. But in Catholic worship, we don’t say “world without end” (it is completely unjustified in the original Latin). That’s an Anglican thing.

 

[Zeno11]

Yes, that’s the lesser Doxology. But in Catholic worship, we don’t say “world without end” (it is completely unjustified in the original Latin). That’s an Anglican thing.

I’m afraid I don’t agree, this is definitely a Catholic prayer, which I have heard in all the churches of Ireland since I was small, and now in England as an adult. It is also listed on the following Catholic websites as a prayer;
catholicity.com/prayer/prayers.html
catholicdoors.com/prayers/;
ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/glory2.htm
ourcatholicprayers.com/the-glory-be-prayer.html etc etc

So it seems quite clear to me from my own experience and education (Catholic family, convent boarding school, catholic churches in diverse locations) as well as these websites that Catholics do indeed say this prayer.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

No, I was brought up in a devout Irish Catholic family! The prayer I was thinking of was 'Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be,* world without end*, Amen

That was the only way I heard it until the last couple of years, [and I have been through a lot of decades, both calendar and rosary ]. It always irritated me as inaccurate.

 

[Zeno11]

That was the only way I heard it until the last couple of years, [and I have been through a lot of decades, both calendar and rosary ]. It always irritated me as inaccurate.

I have never heard it any other way…and I am into my 5th decade…! In fact I’m ashamed to say i only noticed it recently, because I was having a light hearted discussion with an elderly uncle about 2012 and the end of the world and he said in conclusion ‘world without end Amen!’ and that’s when it struck me that well, no actually, that is not accurate.

As it is a* very*common, daily prayer, why is it recited by millions of us when it is not accurate? Surely it is important that our prayers actually reflect the truth??

 

[andreashofer]

I’m afraid I don’t agree, this is definitely a Catholic prayer, which I have heard in all the churches of Ireland since I was small, and now in England as an adult. It is also listed on the following Catholic websites as a prayer;
catholicity.com/prayer/prayers.html
catholicdoors.com/prayers/;
ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/glory2.htm
ourcatholicprayers.com/the-glory-be-prayer.html etc etc

So it seems quite clear to me from my own experience and education (Catholic family, convent boarding school, catholic churches in diverse locations) as well as these websites that Catholics do indeed say this prayer.

We got to look into the sacred language, that is Latin, in order to compare the words we use. German can often be a great help as well for a better understanding of these words.

Latin: “…Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen”
translated: "…as in the beginning, is now, always, and to the age of ages. Amen

German: “…wie im Anfang, so auch jetzt und allezeit und in Ewigkeit. Amen”
translated: “…as in the beginning, so now and always and in eternity. Amen”

English:"…as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen"

Today’s Psalm 145, verse 21: “Let me speak of the praise of the Lord, let all mankind bless his holy name for ever, for ages unending.”

Our goal is to save souls from hell by making reparation for the sins of the world. We give glory to God and we simply want to do it forever. Praise the Lord forever.

In hell, humans are not able to glorify God anymore, they can only hate God and want other souls to perish as well (revelations of Sister Josefa Menendez). So we must use our time to glorify God.

 

[andreashofer]

No, I was brought up in a devout Irish Catholic family! The prayer I was thinking of was 'Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be,* world without end*, Amen

Long live the Irish, one of the few nations, that didn’t legalize abortion. Praise the Lord!

 

[DavidFilmer]

So it seems quite clear to me from my own experience and education (Catholic family, convent boarding school, catholic churches in diverse locations) as well as these websites that Catholics do indeed say this prayer.

Well, then, people are using a very bad English translation. That’s not what the actual prayer says in Latin.

 

[JillianRose]

I’m afraid I don’t agree, this is definitely a Catholic prayer, which I have heard in all the churches of Ireland since I was small, and now in England as an adult. It is also listed on the following Catholic websites as a prayer;
catholicity.com/prayer/prayers.html
catholicdoors.com/prayers/;
ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/glory2.htm
ourcatholicprayers.com/the-glory-be-prayer.html etc etc

So it seems quite clear to me from my own experience and education (Catholic family, convent boarding school, catholic churches in diverse locations) as well as these websites that Catholics do indeed say this prayer.

True. I grew Up in the Chicago diocese and that’s how we were taught. I live in Indiana now and we say the same thing World without end.

 

[Zeno11]

:

Long live the Irish, one of the few nations, that didn’t legalize abortion. Praise the Lord!

 

[Zeno11]

Well, then, people are using a very bad English translation. That’s not what the actual prayer says in Latin.

Ah, Latin! I do love the original Latin of our prayers. This is also what people who will only go to the Latin mass tell me, that the English translation is inaccurate and loses much from the Latin Mass that sustained the church for centuries. Is this true, in your opinion? I am not a good enough Latin scholar to know, unfortunately. I do go to the Latin Mass as often as I can.
It kind of annoys me that we are saying prayers all over the world that have an ambiguous or inaccurate translation. Surely this is important to rectify? .

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

Ah, Latin! I do love the original Latin of our prayers. This is also what people who will only go to the Latin mass tell me, that the English translation is inaccurate and loses much from the Latin Mass that sustained the church for centuries. Is this true, in your opinion? I am not a good enough Latin scholar to know, unfortunately. I do go to the Latin Mass as often as I can.
It kind of annoys me that we are saying prayers all over the world that have an ambiguous or inaccurate translation. Surely this is important to rectify? .

In many cases the Latin is a translation from the Greek. I’ve been to a Catholic cathedral that had the Trisagion in Latin. It loses much in its translation from Greek to Latin. Perhaps we should all revert back to Koine Greek

 

[EricFilmer]

Well, then, people are using a very bad English translation. That’s not what the actual prayer says in Latin.

I’m not sure how the “world without end” variation of the Doxology came to be accepted in Catholicism (at least among English speaking Catholics), but it seems to be the common one used in many Catholic devotions (for example, the Rosary). This could be a case of a popular English translation being embraced by Catholics and consequently becoming “time honored” through the years. A good example of this is the variation of the Our Father commonly used by both Catholics and Protestants. Although it is not an incorrect translation, it is nonetheless not the best translation. However, because it has a time-honored status, and because trying to get Catholics to learn, remember and use a different version in common worship would probably be an exercise in futility, the classic version of the Our Father is preserved in the liturgy.

As a side note, the Doxology in the Liturgy of the Hours ends with: “…is now and will be forever” (as opposed to “world without end”).