Catholic statement against war

[im_wildrose]

Hello!

I recently got into a conversation with a Jehovah Witness who’s chosen subject of argumentation is war and how, in his mind, the Catholic Church does not do enough to protest war. We had a lovely conversation and he’s coming back next week so I need to have some info ready. I already have the, “Statement on the Catholic Conscientious Objector,” that I’m going to pull some things from, but I’d like to highlight other statements or individuals throughout history who took a stand against war. It seems to me that he has only a narrow vision of recent history when - if we’re going to be honest - many terrible atrocities have occurred and the Church hasn’t always spoken very loudly against them. But I know they have spoken, and throughout the last 2000 years, there have been many people within the Church who have made statements and/or worked actively to oppose war.

As we spoke, I realized the direction that I actually need to take with this gentleman. He comes at things from the angle of, if the leadership are not speaking out against war and are not counseling individuals to not kill no matter what the circumstances, then how can we stay within such an “organization.” When he said that I realized that I needed to respond by discussing the fact that the Church is not an “organization,” but rather THE Church, founded by Christ. That even if I were the only faithful Catholic left in the world (which I know would never happen), it wouldn’t matter because, how could I ever leave my Lord?

So, does anyone have some good references for me on Catholics who have objected to war over the years? Thanks!!

Deo Juvante,
Jen

 

[im_wildrose]

Or, if someone has other ideas on how to approach this, I’d love to hear it. Maybe some facts about how religious orders have helped victims of war or have promoted peace? I’m trying to google things but the results are overwhelming. Thanks for anything that might be helpful!!

Deo Juvante,
Jen

 

[Tim_D]

if the leadership are not speaking out against war and are not counseling individuals to not kill no matter what the circumstances, then how can we stay within such an “organization.”

The fact of the matter is that the Church allows for war in accordance with certain strict principles that need to be met in order to be morally justified. War is a bad thing but it is sometimes a necessary act.

Also, the Church has never said that we are “to not kill no matter what the circumstances.” The fact is that there are several circumstances where the act of killing is justified, and fighting a morally just war is one of them. We are not called to be pacifists; we have a duty to ourselves, our families and our nations to provide security and safety.

 

[im_wildrose]

Thanks so much for the response, Tim. I know all that and agree with it. His response to our Just War Theory was to describe the atrocities committed at Hiroshima, as well as his experiences during Vietnam. He did not go to Vietnam but had many friends who did and came home bragging about shooting up civilian villages and intentionally aiming directly at children. We all know that these things happened and he had a valid point. Those things are not supposed to happen. On the other hand, I think most people understand that, especially in Vietnam, it was often impossible to know who was friend and who was enemy. Of course, that logic wouldn’t matter to this gentleman anyway because he pointed out the terrible deeds of the Roman rulers at the time of Christ and how, despite their atrocities, Jesus did not instruct his followers to fight back, and even to love their enemies.

I’m just recognizing that he had a valid point that deserves some response. This is a very passionate subject for him and I can tell it affects him deeply. I would argue that he has a bigger beef with our government than anything else, but the tack he has chosen with me is to say, “Church leaders should have done more to encourage people not to fight.” Maybe they should have, especially in Vietnam. Hard to say. Anyway, I was just hoping to have some references for him to indicate that there were clergy out there speaking out against war at some point in history, especially since the Church also allows for us to be conscientious objectors. The bigger issue is that he feels like one should leave their church if there are individuals who repeatedly do not follow it’s precepts. One comment I made to him today was, “Fortunately, my faith is not dependent on sinful human beings and whether or not they choose to practice the teachings of the Church.”

Thanks again, Jen

 

[mikekle]

The fact of the matter is that the Church allows for war in accordance with certain strict principles that need to be met in order to be morally justified. War is a bad thing but it is sometimes a necessary act.

Also, the Church has never said that we are “to not kill no matter what the circumstances.” The fact is that there are several circumstances where the act of killing is justified, and fighting a morally just war is one of them. We are not called to be pacifists; we have a duty to ourselves, our families and our nations to provide security and safety.

The real question I have about ‘just war’…lets say a nation decides to go to war with another nation, yet they lie to the public about the REAL reason why, their lie may be cause for a just war, but in reality the real reason they are there, is not…so in a case like this, I wonder how God sorts it out?

Surely the low level troops would not be held accountable by God for any killing, or would he expect them to be able to determine if their orders were ‘just’ or not…making it their decision on whether to sin or not?

An article I recently read about US military troops standing guard over and protecting Afghan poppie fields and production facilities, makes me wonder about some of the reasons why US military is there in the first place.

 

[im_wildrose]

That’s a good point, Mikekle. On the other hand, our military has also built homes and schools for people in war torn areas. They aren’t just “fighting machines.” The JW position is that,.even if forced into military service, they still can’t kill, under any circumstances. It seems a little idealistic, and yet I commend them for their courage to live that part of the Gospel so literally. The more I think about it, the more I realize that I need to just give him that one but then address his premise that, if our leaders do something wrong, the “organization” itself is wrong and should be cast off. Great discussion!!

Jen