Catholic use of self-descriptive adjectives

[Abu]

TimothyH #36
Calling people “cafeteria” or “in name only” does neither them nor you any good.

For those who would like to face reality, Catholic Answers explains.

What is a “cafeteria Catholic”?
Full Question
I frequently hear the term “cafeteria Catholic.” Exactly what does this mean?

Answer
A cafeteria Catholic is typically defined as one who picks and chooses what Catholic teaching he wants to believe. Catholics are not free to choose which teachings (on faith and morals) to obey.

Even when the Church has not spoken on a matter of faith or morals definitively (infallibly), the faithful must give “a religious submission of the intellect and will” to its teachings (CIC 752).
catholic.com/quickquestio…teria-catholic

 

[pianistclare]

Your link is from almost 6 yrs ago. I do see Voris was mentioned during the thread. But who here started another thread on Michael Voris for the foreseeable future? Even if 6 yrs is foreseeable. No one that I can see.

The ban on Michael Voris topics has not been lifted.

 

[Usige]

The ban on Michael Voris topics has not been lifted.

This is not a Voris topic. I was around when that ban was put in place and the mod at the time specifically said that it was okay to refer to Voris or Real Catholic TV (now Church Militant) if it was related to the topic. I haven’t kept up with it, but if you look at the very last post in the thread you linked to you will see the mod, Jo Benedict, said that the issue was not Mr Voris per se, but those that bickered about things related to him. That doesn’t preclude subsequent bans that I am unaware of, but mentioning Mr Voris or any of his comments was not part of the ban you linked to.

 

[alwayswill]

Your link is from almost 6 yrs ago. I do see Voris was mentioned during the thread. But who here started another thread on Michael Voris for the foreseeable future? Even if 6 yrs is foreseeable. No one that I can see.

I just read all the posts in that thread:
Very interesting…(especially the number of banned Catholics that previously had thousands and thousands of posts)

to be safe, I will never mention that “name” again or link to his site.

 

[pianistclare]

I just read all the posts in that thread:
Very interesting…(especially the number of banned Catholics that previously had thousands and thousands of posts)

to be safe, I will never mention that “name” again or link to his site.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I just read all the posts in that thread:
Very interesting…(especially the number of banned Catholics that previously had thousands and thousands of posts)

to be safe, I will never mention that “name” again or link to his site.

I wasn’t even aware of a ban. I believe I’m the one who mentioned him by name. Had I known of the ban, I would’ve either not replied or else talked around his name.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I just read all the posts in that thread:
Very interesting…(especially the number of banned Catholics that previously had thousands and thousands of posts)

to be safe, I will never mention that “name” again or link to his site.

I understand wanting to be safe. Especially on CAF. Like thecolorsblend I wasn’t aware either. I don’t even know who Voris is although I’ve seen his name before. But the mod 6 yrs ago said, “Anyone who starts another thread on Michael Voris for the foreseeable future will have their account permanently closed.” Neither you nor I nor thecolorsblend started such a thread. I think that was what Usige was explaining too.

 

[Sy_Noe]

For those who would like to face reality, Catholic Answers explains.

What is a “cafeteria Catholic”?
Full Question
I frequently hear the term “cafeteria Catholic.” Exactly what does this mean?

Answer
A cafeteria Catholic is typically defined as one who picks and chooses what Catholic teaching he wants to believe. Catholics are not free to choose which teachings (on faith and morals) to obey.

Even when the Church has not spoken on a matter of faith or morals definitively (infallibly), the faithful must give “a religious submission of the intellect and will” to its teachings (CIC 752).
catholic.com/quickquestio…teria-catholic

Is that the Church’s definition and usage of the term “Cafeteria Catholic” or just CAF’s answer?

 

[Abu]

Sy Noe #48
Is that the Church’s definition and usage of the term “Cafeteria Catholic” or just CAF’s answer?

The real Catholic is as the Church teaches:
Can. 205 “Those baptized are fully in the communion of the Catholic Church on this earth who are joined with Christ in its visible structure by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical governance.”
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PT.HTM

Thus those discarding any dogma or doctrine on faith or morals are not in full communion with the Church.

Identified here is precisely the state of dissenters, who pick and choose what THEY want to believe, just like those outside of Christ’s Church. The “interpretations” made by dissenters, whether Feeneyite, Sedecavantists, Traditionalists, modernists, or any others who rely on their own selfist feelings, desires, wants, prejudices – known as cafeteria (pick and choose) Catholics, or as George Weigel puts it – Catholic Lite.
,
This breed shuns the Magisterial infallibility mandated by the Son of God and they rely on their private interpretation as an alternative magisterium just as Protestants do. Unfortunately although having Christ’s teaching through His Church offered to them, some still try to deny Christ, misrepresent and reinterpret even Her Scriptures to their own destruction. (See 2 Pet: 2:1).

How ironic that seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand (Mt 13:13), and the simple reason is not assenting to the Magisterium which Christ has established in His Church.

 

[Darryl_B]

My understanding is that as long as one is not being destructive to other Catholic’s faith (ie trying to win souls to their cause), then it is okay for one to struggle in the mean time, with the dogmas of faith and morality, as they may change tune next year, five years from now, ten years from now, as their faith grows and develops within the context of the framework of the Catholic Church.

But without that context we have banished the struggling.

Sure some people “leave” the Catholic Church and wander around aimlessly through the “protestant”, then through the “atheist”, but give God a chance, pray for them, who knows, there is such a thing as a Catholic “Revert”.

 

[Sy_Noe]

The real Catholic is as the Church teaches:
Can. 205 “Those baptized are fully in the communion of the Catholic Church on this earth who are joined with Christ in its visible structure by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical governance.”
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PT.HTM

Thus those discarding any dogma or doctrine on faith or morals are not in full communion with the Church.

Identified here is precisely the state of dissenters, who pick and choose what THEY want to believe, just like those outside of Christ’s Church. The “interpretations” made by dissenters, whether Feeneyite, Sedecavantists, Traditionalists, modernists, or any others who rely on their own selfist feelings, desires, wants, prejudices – known as cafeteria (pick and choose) Catholics, or as George Weigel puts it – Catholic Lite.
,
This breed shuns the Magisterial infallibility mandated by the Son of God and they rely on their private interpretation as an alternative magisterium just as Protestants do. Unfortunately although having Christ’s teaching through His Church offered to them, some still try to deny Christ, misrepresent and reinterpret even Her Scriptures to their own destruction. (See 2 Pet: 2:1).

How ironic that seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand (Mt 13:13), and the simple reason is not assenting to the Magisterium which Christ has established in His Church.

Based on polling there aren’t many in full communion. Take any number of things. Whether weekly Mass attendance, contraception, any number of things. Not to mention lines at the confessional are even shorter than the Communion lines can be. That was the point of the OP.

And I’m not sure since I’m not from a Protestant tradition, but I think maybe Protestants might say 2Peter 1 is talking about those prophecies found in Scripture. Since it actually does say “no prophecy of Scripture”. Not necessarily that they can’t read said Scripture and see for themselves. The Bereans searched Scripture afterall. By their fruits we shall know them.

 

[clmowry]

If a baptized or confirmed Catholic attends Mass regularly but disagrees with the Catholic Church on say whether a woman has a legal right to an abortion under the US Constitution or on marriage equality, or disagrees even on the use of contraception as many Catholics do at least according to polling…

Does the Catholic Church consider such a person:

A practicing Catholic because they’re at Mass regularly and perhaps follows other things?
A non practicing Catholic?
An unorthodox Catholic?
An in name only Catholic?
Not a Catholic?

Feel free to give other suggestions. I’d prefer something not so harsh as to judge them a heretic but if you must.

“Catholic”

Regardless of your current standing with the Church you remain a Catholic (unless you become and formal apostate I suppose…)

It probably doesn’t help to try and put a label on a “group” or even an individual.

You would need to look into the details of each specific objection and understand the source of the persons dissension from Church teaching.

Does the individual simply not understand what the Church teaches or do they fully understand Church teaching on a specific subject and obstinately adhere to a position that they fully understand to have been deemed a heresy?

In your example above, acknowledging that someone has a “a legal right to an abortion under the US Constitution” just means that they don’t understand that a bad court decision doesn’t mean that abortion is a right that is found in the US constitution. They are correct, however if they assert it is the current law of the land. It doesn’t, however, make them a heretic.

If on the other hand they profess that the murder of an innocent child is not sinful because its not currently illegal in the United States, and with full understanding of the Church’s teaching on the subject of abortion argues for abortion rights and of there own free will profess and teach that abortion is not a sin, then that person is a heretic. But still a Catholic heretic.

Between full agreement with Church teaching and formal heresy is a continuum of error.

Some sinful, some not…

Chuck

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Is that the Church’s definition and usage of the term “Cafeteria Catholic” or just CAF’s answer?

Clmowry has a very good answer in post 52.

I don’t think Catholic Answers are qualified to hijack the informal term cafeteria Catholic.

Eat everything on the menu, but not all at once.

Keep coming back.

Believe in lifelong learning.

If the Pope declared a 5 year interdiction on the eucharist worldwide, would there be enough in the Catholic Church to make you carry on hanging around?

 

[TimothyH]

“Catholic”

Regardless of your current standing with the Church you remain a Catholic (unless you become and formal apostate I suppose…)

It probably doesn’t help to try and put a label on a “group” or even an individual.

You would need to look into the details of each specific objection and understand the source of the persons dissension from Church teaching.

Does the individual simply not understand what the Church teaches or do they fully understand Church teaching on a specific subject and obstinately adhere to a position that they fully understand to have been deemed a heresy?

In your example above, acknowledging that someone has a “a legal right to an abortion under the US Constitution” just means that they don’t understand that a bad court decision doesn’t mean that abortion is a right that is found in the US constitution. They are correct, however if they assert it is the current law of the land. It doesn’t, however, make them a heretic.

If on the other hand they profess that the murder of an innocent child is not sinful because its not currently illegal in the United States, and with full understanding of the Church’s teaching on the subject of abortion argues for abortion rights and of there own free will profess and teach that abortion is not a sin, then that person is a heretic. But still a Catholic heretic.

Between full agreement with Church teaching and formal heresy is a continuum of error.

Some sinful, some not…

Chuck

This is a wonderful post.

-Tim-

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Originally the word heretic meant, “holding the typical beliefs of the locality”.

 

[Darryl_B]

Originally the word heretic meant, “holding the typical beliefs of the locality”.

Originally the word was Greek. In the NT it is used to identify Sadducees, Pharisees, Nazarenes internally among the Jews. It was also used to identify Christianity externally by the Romans. Eventually it came to mean the opposite of orthodox, which was prompted by the centrality of “Unity”.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… some of the descriptions that people identify themselves with on the forum can be sad for them but kind of funny…ex Catholic seeking to become protestant but Jewish will do…lol.

Johnny, I see you are currently called “Catholic”.

In a forum this facility is an opportunity, if we wish, to place ourselves in a ballpark that we think may interest, arrest or intrigue others, if we want.

That’s not sad, unless they wish to speak for themselves. It’s not “funny” as you put it.

Better the intrepid explorer than anyone that doesn’t care where he is.

In some places and times, not only is one forbidden to claim any form of relative individuality, one is forbidden to speak or think. Please remember where you are fortunate and give God thanks that some others are also.

To God individuality is a most high value because thus we can freely pull together. The true faith is not an ideology.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

If a baptized or confirmed Catholic attends Mass regularly but disagrees with the Catholic Church on say whether a woman has a legal right to an abortion under the US Constitution or on marriage equality, or disagrees even on the use of contraception as many Catholics do at least according to polling…

Does the Catholic Church consider such a person:

A practicing Catholic because they’re at Mass regularly and perhaps follows other things?
A non practicing Catholic?
An unorthodox Catholic?
An in name only Catholic?
Not a Catholic?

…

Sy, your question continues to intrigue me.

Personally I don’t weild the word ‘Catholic’ much. As for the Catholic Church considering people Catholic it used procedures through priests and similar officials to confer reception into sacraments. It did it in its own way and for its own reasons. Over centuries, catechumenate has been by and large under-employed as an element in these procedures. What the Church has conferred the Church has conferred, for what it is worth.

What between what is practical, tact and detail of memory a priest gives communion to who he gives communion to. In particular, if a person of diverse views is not troubling others’ consciences with them, it may be a less significant factor in viewing the worth of their position vis a vis the sacraments. Though I’m no expert. There is still the worth of my own position to my own honest view of which I have to continually inform myself from truthful sources that I can access.

If the local church provides plenty of ongoing instruction and exploration opportunities in the cores of the faith, it does, if it doesn’t it doesn’t.

What does God say about the life of Joe Bloggs and the journey to and with Him and with his fellows? This is what it’s really about though some local churches or dioceses may vary the emphasis.

Anyway, at the end of the day it may not be so much of a disaster being called “not a Catholic” as it is made out. These are all reasons why we must be less intrigued by how things are “said” to “look” and get more intrigued by us and God. In the town I grew up in, there were plenty of people benefitting from life with God who weren’t called “Catholics”.

God might give us courage and flair to put something right in a few years’ time that we baulk at today. Our conscience might improve. We might be healed of shame (that is a contagious thing).

Just for today, to have a little hope is excellent and to have more hope even more so. Scriptures are there to be read, preferably in the context of explanations of a quality some parishes and dioceses in their “wisdom” don’t make a point of equipping themselves to give. I knew of people who related, who wouldn’t normally have had time for each other, because this opportunity was created, because Scripture makes sense in relationship, not in enforcing loneliness. (Strange news: relationship exists apart from the sexual.) (Big scale moves through lots of factions had a stop put to it.)

A heart that cries to God is a heart with hope. Don’t let some people whether at the forum or anywhere get on your nerves. Decent catechesis lasts years upon years.

 

[simspt]

I understand wanting to be safe. Especially on CAF. Like thecolorsblend I wasn’t aware either. I don’t even know who Voris is although I’ve seen his name before. But the mod 6 yrs ago said, “Anyone who starts another thread on Michael Voris for the foreseeable future will have their account permanently closed.” Neither you nor I nor thecolorsblend started such a thread. I think that was what Usige was explaining too.

are you joking ??? permanently closed !! shame on whoever that mod was…thats pathetic

 

[simspt]

The real Catholic is as the Church teaches:
Can. 205 “Those baptized are fully in the communion of the Catholic Church on this earth who are joined with Christ in its visible structure by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical governance.”
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PT.HTM

Thus those discarding any dogma or doctrine on faith or morals are not in full communion with the Church.

Identified here is precisely the state of dissenters, who pick and choose what THEY want to believe, just like those outside of Christ’s Church. The “interpretations” made by dissenters, whether Feeneyite, Sedecavantists, Traditionalists, modernists, or any others who rely on their own selfist feelings, desires, wants, prejudices – known as cafeteria (pick and choose) Catholics, or as George Weigel puts it – Catholic Lite.
,
This breed shuns the Magisterial infallibility mandated by the Son of God and they rely on their private interpretation as an alternative magisterium just as Protestants do. Unfortunately although having Christ’s teaching through His Church offered to them, some still try to deny Christ, misrepresent and reinterpret even Her Scriptures to their own destruction. (See 2 Pet: 2:1).

How ironic that seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand (Mt 13:13), and the simple reason is not assenting to the Magisterium which Christ has established in His Church.

yep faith and morals are non-negotiable…
much easier for someone to say they differ from the Church’s teaching than to say they differ from Christ’s teachings