Catholic view on salvation

[paul_c]

One of the suggestions made was that good works can be a source of grace. What I have been taught is that grace always comes first. Works don’t give us more grace. For example, an actual grace is what moves you to go to confession in the first place. Then after performing a good work, we are more open to receive additional grace which leads us to perform more good works. But grace always comes first.

Exactly. When baptized we get the grace to do good works. When we cooperate with those graces and do the good works, the grace within us is stregthened to do even more and to be more resistant to sin.

 

[paul_c]

When the catholic churchs resembles more humility then control-I believe the words of God will Flow.

Perhaps you misunderstand the Catholic Church. It was created by Jesus Christ to administer the sacraments and to teach the truth abour salvation. It doesn’t have an army to control you or anyone else. It simply teaches, unflinchingly, what it was told to teach. And remember, the Church wrote the Bible and the Bible’s authority comes from the Church, not visa versa. Not everything is in the Bible.

The answers to your questions:no no no no

Careful here…

The church calls it sacraments- I call it gifts …the united of two to become one -as the bible indicates.
But here is the real debate…who created or interpreted all you said in the catholic church because God did not say this…

Any how do you know what God said? Do you have special revelations?

confession: Repent unto the Lord.( For the lord died for the salvation of mankind)
I believe if one feels more comfortable in a confessional box with a priest…to confess their sins then that is good for them.
If another feels he can confess his sins directly to God…Then that is his/hers.
They have brought back the confessional box as mandatory now…took out ‘General Absolution’ which drew numerous crowds-and in turn was filled with the holy spirit!!.here in the west …
the catholic church is not progressing but tryng to go backwards and using forms of control.

Let me clarify for you. This is not about comfort. Jesus gave the Church, through the Apostles, the right to forgive sins in his name. This is what the priest does in he confessional. He has been trained and ordained for this purpose and has the authority to forgive sins that was passed on from the Apostles through the bishops to him. It involves more than just confession. It also requires contrition (sorrow for sins) repentence (the agreement to avoid future sins) and penance (giving reparation for sins). Confession to God, while a positive step for sure, is insufficient in most cases (the exception being PERFECT CONTRITION) to return to the state of grace. General absolution is nothing more than this.

first communion- a tradition in the catholic church…which i have participated and find important for the kids to be part of …for the reminder that christ dwells within them.

It is much more than a reminder. It is a true source of Grace. Read John 6. If you don’t eat His body and drink His blood, there is no life within you.

confirmation: introduction to the holy spirit…

Lets debate here…When John the baptist…stood by the water baptizing people with the water…He said I baptize you with water…but the one who comes(Jesus) will baptize you with the holy spirit.

There’s no debate, only misunderstanding. Baptism provides sanctifying grace. Confirmation seals you with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They are: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord

Interesting isn’t it…so have catholics made their own rules…or adde to???

Not so. The Church teaches as it has been taught. It seems that it is you are the one intent on making his own rules.

At the moment of baptism- we recieve Jesus ( would that not be a combination of what the catholic church separates into different sacraments??? first communion recieving Jesus…confirmation- recieving the holy spirit…When at baptism it was all there Father Son and Holy spirit. Amen.

Confession - teach the children to confess their sins …for Gods sake tell them to make the choice where they feel comfortable…in doing so…

Am I ant- catholic…nah…I am anti-man made laws and calling them Gods!

I highly recommend that you educate yourself in what the sacraments mean, their history, and what they do. Here’s the link to the sacrament section of the catechism: scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm
Just keep paging down to get all the sacraments.

Pergatory…possibly it exists…but still was not part of Gods words in the bible.
Jesus said you are either with me or against me you cannot be inbetween.

You misunderstand Purgatory. It is not middle ground. It is for those that die in the state of grace but still have the tendency to sin to be purged of that tendency since nothing unclean can enter heaven.

Catholic Religion quit making God out to be so complicated ok?

God is complex and mysterious. He is so much greater than us that we can never completely understand him. That said, what the Catholic Church teaches about how to get to heaven is not that complex. Get baptized. Do works of love for God and Neighbor,. Partake of the sacraments, Avoid sin. If you do sin, go to confession. Surely that is within even a childs grasp.

Walk as Jesus has walked on this earth…and revive the catholic church to truth and goodness.

That is Good advice. If people followed what the Catholic Church teaches, they would indeed be doing Jesus’will.

Jesus did not preach this way!

I’m sorry but Yes, He did. Have you read the Gospels?

 

[David_Castlen]

**]Can someone on this thread tell me if it was necessary for Jesus to be Sacrificed in order for us to be saved. Clearly, the CCC says that His whole life was for our salvation. My understanding has been Christ could have saved us any way He chose; however, because of the covenants He had to die. See Rom 7 and Gal 3; DT 22.

Others, very intelligent Catholics, say otherwise. They conter that it was us who forced Him to the cross and that is why He was cruxified. They go on to say, He dieing like this and not having to have been sacrificed shows His love (even) more so.

Most tell me that he had to be sacrificed to fulfilll the covenants and to elliminate the Old Law Rom 7. Help someone!!!**/B]

 

[anodos]

God is complex and mysterious. He is so much greater than us that we can never completely understand him. That said, what the Catholic Church teaches about how to get to heaven is not that complex. Get baptized. Do works of love for God and Neighbor,. Partake of the sacraments, Avoid sin. If you do sin, go to confession. Surely that is within even a childs grasp.

Not that difficult.

 

[paul_c]

**]Can someone on this thread tell me if it was necessary for Jesus to be Sacrificed in order for us to be saved. Clearly, the CCC says that His whole life was for our salvation. My understanding has been Christ could have saved us any way He chose; however, because of the covenants He had to die. See Rom 7 and Gal 3; DT 22.

Others, very intelligent Catholics, say otherwise. They conter that it was us who forced Him to the cross and that is why He was cruxified. They go on to say, He dieing like this and not having to have been sacrificed shows His love (even) more so.

Most tell me that he had to be sacrificed to fulfilll the covenants and to elliminate the Old Law Rom 7. Help someone!!!**/B]

God clearly can do anything he wants- he is afterall, all powerful. He chose to save us by becoming incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ and to sacrifice himself for us. In this way, he showed us that the way to heaven is by giving of yourself.

The reason that this fulfilled the Old testament prophesies is that this was his plan all along.

 

[David_Castlen]

God clearly can do anything he wants- he is afterall, all powerful. He chose to save us by becoming incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ and to sacrifice himself for us. In this way, he showed us that the way to heaven is by giving of yourself.

The reason that this fulfilled the Old testament prophesies is that this was his plan all along.

So, are you saying Paul, that because of the covenants (a part of God’s plan) He had to die? Can you sight some verses?

 

[Jaaanosik]

Did Jesus have to die?

A sacrificial lamb is offered to God for the forgiveness of sins in the Old Testament.
It’s a teaching that an offense has to be settled.
It’s a preparation for the Ultimate Sacrificial Lamb.
Here is one point of view why it’s like that.

When a regular person comes to another regular person on a street and says ‘you are a stupid .a.s.s.’ then some nasty words would fly and it may be settled.

When a regular person says the same thing to a president of a country an investigation and charges would come and maybe a fine/jail (I guess it depends on a country).

The offense is measured by the importance of the offended person.

We offended God with our sins. That’s the Infinite offense. It can be settled only by the Infinite Ultimate Sacrificial Lamb.

If you like it, take it, if not don’t give up and keep looking for a better understanding.

 

[paul_c]

So, are you saying Paul, that because of the covenants (a part of God’s plan) He had to die? Can you sight some verses?

I didn’t actually say that. Think of it a different way. God lives outside of time so he sees all the world’s history at once. If God had chosen to save mankind in a different way, then the prophesies would have been different as well. But God, in his wisdom saw that the crucifixion was the perfect way to make people understand that the way to heaven is through giving yourself up for others and he showed that through Jesus passion. So to complete God’s plan, Jesus had to die on the cross. For scriptural support, you can go to any of the Gospels. They all discuss Jesus predicting his passion ahead of time. I’ll use Matthew’s gospel as an example:

Matthew 16:
The First Prediction of the Passion.*
21 From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he* must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.
22* Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, “God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you.”
23 He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.”

Matthew 17:
The Second Prediction of the Passion.*
22 As they were gathering in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is to be handed over to men,
23and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day.” And they were overwhelmed with grief.

Matthew 20:
The Third Prediction of the Passion.*
17 As Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve [disciples] aside by themselves, and said to them on the way,
18“Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death,
19and hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day.”

You might also find proof for yourself in the story of the resurrected Jesus on the road to Emmaus. I won’t attach the whole story from Luke 24, but I will leave you with this passage:

25 And he (Jesus) said to them, “Oh, how foolish you are! How slow of heart to believe all that the prophets spoke!
26Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer* these things and enter into his glory?”
27Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures.

I hope this helped.

 

[David_Castlen]

I didn’t actually say that. Think of it a different way. God lives outside of time so he sees all the world’s history at once. If God had chosen to save mankind in a different way, then the prophesies would have been different as well. But God, in his wisdom saw that the crucifixion was the perfect way to make people understand that the way to heaven is through giving yourself up for others and he showed that through Jesus passion. So to complete God’s plan, Jesus had to die on the cross. For scriptural support, you can go to any of the Gospels. They all discuss Jesus predicting his passion ahead of time. I’ll use Matthew’s gospel as an example:

Matthew 16:
The First Prediction of the Passion.*
21 From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he* must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.
22* Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, “God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you.”
23 He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.”

Matthew 17:
The Second Prediction of the Passion.*
22 As they were gathering in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is to be handed over to men,
23and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day.” And they were overwhelmed with grief.

Matthew 20:
The Third Prediction of the Passion.*
17 As Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve [disciples] aside by themselves, and said to them on the way,
18“Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death,
19and hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day.”

You might also find proof for yourself in the story of the resurrected Jesus on the road to Emmaus. I won’t attach the whole story from Luke 24, but I will leave you with this passage:

25 And he (Jesus) said to them, “Oh, how foolish you are! How slow of heart to believe all that the prophets spoke!
26Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer* these things and enter into his glory?”
27Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures.

I hope this helped.

**Thank you Paul,

Let me explain where I am coming from. After quite a lot of bible study over the years and having been introduced to the covenant philosopy by the prespatarians, then becomig a Catholic and taking a few classes led by Jeff Cavins and listening to a number of CDs from Scott Hahn and Tim Stables; I thought it to be abundantly clear that 1. Jesus did not have to die for our sins - He could have secured our salvation anyway He chose - BUT God gave us covenants and God is just so someone had to satisfy (die) for the transgressions committed against the covenants 2. God also promised us another covenant Jer 31:31 ; Heb 8:8. and to eliminate the Old Ceremonial covenant and bring in the new someone had to die 3. Solution: God/Man: Jesus to be sacrificed. (Chapter 3 of Galations and 7 of Romans)

Now most I talk to agree with me; HOWEVER, I have a friend who gave me a text supposedly used in some Papal seminaries that quotes the CCC that all of Christ life was the sacrifice. I agree. But they interpret these passages to mean that Christ only had to be here and shed one drop of blood. This apparantly is an accepted teaching by many.

When you quote, as you have above, the numerious places where Christ and others prodicted His death sacrifice, those of the opinion He did not have to be cruxified say that these predictions where not requirements but simply predictions. And they go on: the fact that Christ accepted something so horrible yet not required to do them shows what a great love He has for us.

So, you see my delima. And, again, I thank you for your extra effort. God bless you, Paul:thumbsup:**

 

[paul_c]

**Thank you Paul,

Let me explain where I am coming from. After quite a lot of bible study over the years and having been introduced to the covenant philosopy by the prespatarians, then becomig a Catholic and taking a few classes led by Jeff Cavins and listening to a number of CDs from Scott Hahn and Tim Stables; I thought it to be abundantly clear that 1. Jesus did not have to die for our sins - He could have secured our salvation anyway He chose - BUT God gave us covenants and God is just so someone had to satisfy (die) for the transgressions committed against the covenants 2. God also promised us another covenant Jer 31:31 ; Heb 8:8. and to eliminate the Old Ceremonial covenant and bring in the new someone had to die 3. Solution: God/Man: Jesus to be sacrificed. (Chapter 3 of Galations and 7 of Romans)

Now most I talk to agree with me; HOWEVER, I have a friend who gave me a text supposedly used in some Papal seminaries that quotes the CCC that all of Christ life was the sacrifice. I agree. But they interpret these passages to mean that Christ only had to be here and shed one drop of blood. This apparantly is an accepted teaching by many.

When you quote, as you have above, the numerious places where Christ and others prodicted His death sacrifice, those of the opinion He did not have to be cruxified say that these predictions where not requirements but simply predictions. And they go on: the fact that Christ accepted something so horrible yet not required to do them shows what a great love He has for us.

So, you see my delima. And, again, I thank you for your extra effort. God bless you, Paul:thumbsup:**

No extra effort. The way God’s plan was put in place, Jesus had to be sacrificed. Of course, God could have created an alternative plan and of course, Jesus could have bailed out too, having free will, but they didn’t out of love for man. I think it was really important in the scheme of things for Jesus to die a painful and humiliating death to show how much love has for us and to give us an example to follow. It was equally important that he rise from the dead to prove that he was God. Shedding just one drop of blood would not have accomplished nearly as much.

 

[David_Castlen]

No extra effort. The way God’s plan was put in place, Jesus had to be sacrificed. Of course, God could have created an alternative plan and of course, Jesus could have bailed out too, having free will, but they didn’t out of love for man. I think it was really important in the scheme of things for Jesus to die a painful and humiliating death to show how much love has for us and to give us an example to follow. It was equally important that he rise from the dead to prove that he was God. Shedding just one drop of blood would not have accomplished nearly as much.

Thank you Paul
Dominus vobiscum

 

[Ignatius]

mortal sins must be confessed to a priest to restore us to that state of grace.

This is a common misconception. We confess our sins to Christ God in the presence of the priest.

No, this is incorrect. Purgatory is for the remittance of temporal punishment due to sin which has already been for given. Even after forgivness, we may still retain a sinful inclination or even think fondly of past sins. Think of it this way, most would agree that we are not pure and holy in this life. Likewise, we know that we are perfectly pure and holy when we are united with Christ in heaven. Purgatory is the means by which we are purged of ll impurity and unholyness and made perfectly pure and holy in Christs presence in heaven.

God bless you on your journey.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[bjoy73]

Just a small note to the rest of the great dialogue going on is to remember John 15:13, “No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” Since God is Love, his death on the cross for our redemption is the greatest form of love He can show us. It also gave others the courage to follow His example and lay down their lives for Him. I’ve heard it said that the blood of the martyrs is the seed for the future growth of the church.

 

[David_Castlen]

Just a small note to the rest of the great dialogue going on is to remember John 15:13, “No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” Since God is Love, his death on the cross for our redemption is the greatest form of love He can show us. It also gave others the courage to follow His example and lay down their lives for Him. I’ve heard it said that the blood of the martyrs is the seed for the future growth of the church.

Amen Bjoy… in fact I am convinced the road to joy is suffering while one offers it up to God… just my opinion … but I have one piece of evidence: not enough to make it certain.