Catholic View toward Protestants

[Wretched_Man]

Rob,

Before we get into a war of words and semantics, you need to address your allegations and answer my questions first. It’s only civil.

The whole Babylonian association, the great crusades launched in the name of Christ…the whole misconception and scripture taken out of context of the church being built upon Peter, the practice of indulgences, selling,candles, prayers and beads etc… priest standing in the gap for men…which is against scripture and idol worship, namely to saints, Mary, scuptures,…so many others…but namely the Roman Church professing to be “the one true church”, the emphasis and extreme allegiance to the catechism over the scriptures…and the fact that the CC think that their church cn not come into error…!!!

Also, you cannot expect me to answer without the basis and foundation for my Faith:
the Church where I found Christ in.
Also, telling me to not use the Catechism of the Church is already an admission that you are not prepared to discuss against it.

I am asking you to use the bible Jose…that is the final authority that we are to rightly use to divide truth…we are to test the scripures…thats like saying I want to use my commentaries and pentecostal hand books to engage you with…Mar 12:24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
The scriptures teach 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 3:15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Cr 4:2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
2Ti 4:2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrineFor the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching earsAnd they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables;.
Jam 1:21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Heb 4:12The word of of God is living,active sharper then any two edged sword…discerns the thoughts and the intents of the heart

…catechism for adults says page 54 that just by reading the scriptures you can;t learn to save your soul…but scripture teaches contray…I can pull the catechism apart and show it is contray to scripture…but that is not my intent…I want to discuss the topic using scripture…why did luther protest…

God raised me in His Church. If you want to talk to me you have to talk to the Church founded by Christ through His Apostles, whose teachings have been carried through the centuries. You see, I don’t stand alone creating my own theology and denomination. I am humble enough to understand that a spirit of service and love is what I am called for. “I desire mercy not sacrifice”, says the Lord

.
This what I am doing…let’s start with how your church was founded…let’s discuss the verse the church uses to justify their position and then talk about your view towards Luther

You come here as a guest and make these claims without any support for them. And then I try to provide you with references to help you make a more informed opinion, which you have no interest in reading as you have already expressed. You then repay me by asking me to strip myself of the place where I belong so you can have “at me” on a personal level thinking I will be a more attractive target and weak for your attacks.

I actually love to read and read all the time…but to send me down a trail of catechisms to be endlessly lost in is not fun for me…I love God’s Holy word and I love truth and I love to discuss it to those who will use the scriptures…if you choose to resort to your church writings…this will be a useless voyage for all aprties…Christ and his word have all final authority…for it is the standard that will weigh on teh scales of judgement…lets’s use the standard he set in palce and not our churches catechisms…they all should be tested against Holy Scripture in the end anyways…would you not agree…

Nice try, but I’ll pass. You can release your anger on someone else.

The thought of opening up scriptures to test the spirit of truth and th spirit of error is apparently unthinkabale to you…or so it appears…their is no offense her my friend and their is no anger…only a Holy indignation to proclaim, study and learn truth and in the process expose error…using scripture not my opinion

In Him (That means Christ),

Jose

Jose …the hope of GLORY is the mystery of Christ in us…I am aware of the what it means to be dead and hid with God “in Christ”…

Cheers…I hope this does not end like this Jose
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[theyoungmonk]

I think we have strayed away from the Catholic View of Protestants to arguing over our theological diffrences, we might want to come a bit back onto topic before this thread gets closed.

 

[Wretched_Man]

QUOTE=jncarlos007;9448618]But, you see, therein exists both the appeal and the stumbling block of Catholicism, in my view.
The long and storied tradition of the church, its history, creeds, and declarations are considered, debated, prayed upon, and declared.

Another term comes to mind would be “protestant”

In a positive way, given one vital contingency, this predetermined and pre-decided dogma frees the individual to focus on their devotion to and relationship with God through Christ. I see this as an amazing thing. Of course the one contingency is the proposition that one must accept as infallible the Church’s positions, which have been shown on occasion to be political, oppressive, ignorant, or out-dated, and have been subject to revision and clarification over time.

Conflicting,controversial and contrary to sound biblical teaching seems to be more importantly, my concern. Not to mention that catholics are encouraged not to test the waters,challenge the said protcols and dogma handed down…this to me raises red flags about searching out the truth. The bibles says you shal know the truth and the truth shall make you free…where the spirit of the lord is there is freedom…is there here.

The alternative is the inevitable individualism that is the result of protestantism, through which there are now hundreds, if not thousands of individualized churches that all think they have the clear understanding of divine revelation.

Yes, there are many out there that do, but we don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.I have been in many churches around the country and world and a great majority of them preach the truth from scripture, not some relative dogma that fluctuates with the times or is handed down by certain denominational leaders…I oppose any such church that has that as a basis over scripture and the teachings of Jesus. You associate a church teachings error solely on the fact of her separation from catholicism…then you have no foundation but only a bias opinion.
God will judge according to his righteousness, not man’s traditions handed down from their fathers…we both know how Jesus dealt with this subject of the traditions of men when speaking to the jews…we have the scriptures so that they may be an example…1Cr 10:11Now all [fn] these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come

I am a believer in one Divine Truth of God. But everyone claims to have access to this truth, and validate their propositions through various means, scriptural and otherwise. Either our understanding of this truth is incomplete (probable) or someone/thing has this truth and the rest of us just don’t see it (possible)

Well praise God…let’s discuss that truth…for the truth will make us free, Jhn 17:17Sanctify (separate)them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

The question is, how do we discern this truth and is it important that we do? (I am not including the idea of grace and salvation. The truth of our reconciliation to God through Christ is non-negotiable. I have enough faith in God and confidence in the faculties He has given me to know this)

Hebrews 4:12For the word of God [is] living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a **discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.**the rest of that chapter in Hebrews is most refereshing as well…
If you are serious and If we are to answer your question honestly then we must turn to the word, the sword of th spirit that will cut through everything of flesh and expose truth.

If these denominations/factions/ divisions are NOT important overall then we should begin to act that way

What is important to mention is that Christ is aiming for one fold, Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

peace…Rob

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Ok ya no problem…

I saw a quote …and I can’t find it now but, one of the catholic members on the forum had a comment about the Holy Spirit…and it sounded like they were against the Holy Spirit. I will try to find it…

Yes, I believe I am…

The whole Babylonian association, the great crusades launched in the name of Christ…the whole misconception and scripture taken out of context of the church being built upon Peter, the practice of indulgences, selling,candles, prayers and beads etc… priest standing in the gap for men…which is against scripture and idol worship, namely to saints, Mary, scuptures,…so many others…but namely the Roman Church professing to be “the one true church”, the emphasis and extreme allegiance to the catechism over the scriptures…and the fact that the CC think that their church cn not come into error…!!!

I am asking you to use the bible Jose…that is the final authority that we are to rightly use to divide truth…we are to test the scripures…thats like saying I want to use my commentaries and pentecostal hand books to engage you with…Mar 12:24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
The scriptures teach 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 3:15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Cr 4:2But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
2Ti 4:2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrineFor the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching earsAnd they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables;.
Jam 1:21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Heb 4:12The word of of God is living,active sharper then any two edged sword…discerns the thoughts and the intents of the heart

…catechism for adults says page 54 that just by reading the scriptures you can;t learn to save your soul…but scripture teaches contray…I can pull the catechism apart and show it is contray to scripture…but that is not my intent…I want to discuss the topic using scripture…why did luther protest…

.
This what I am doing…let’s start with how your church was founded…let’s discuss the verse the church uses to justify their position and then talk about your view towards Luther

I actually love to read and read all the time…but to send me down a trail of catechisms to be endlessly lost in is not fun for me…I love God’s Holy word and I love truth and I love to discuss it to those who will use the scriptures…if you choose to resort to your church writings…this will be a useless voyage for all aprties…Christ and his word have all final authority…for it is the standard that will weigh on teh scales of judgement…lets’s use the standard he set in palce and not our churches catechisms…they all should be tested against Holy Scripture in the end anyways…would you not agree…

The thought of opening up scriptures to test the spirit of truth and th spirit of error is apparently unthinkabale to you…or so it appears…their is no offense her my friend and their is no anger…only a Holy indignation to proclaim, study and learn truth and in the process expose error…using scripture not my opinion

Jose …the hope of GLORY is the mystery of Christ in us…I am aware of the what it means to be dead and hid with God “in Christ”…

Cheers…I hope this does not end like this Jose

Did you just answer our first exchange again?

Maybe you missed my “personal” response without quoting forbidden Catholic material.

 

[jpelham]

Another term comes to mind would be “protestant”

Conflicting,controversial and contrary to sound biblical teaching seems to be more importantly, my concern. Not to mention that catholics are encouraged not to test the waters,challenge the said protcols and dogma handed down…this to me raises red flags about searching out the truth. The bibles says you shal know the truth and the truth shall make you free…where the spirit of the lord is there is freedom…is there here.

Well praise God…let’s discuss that truth…for the truth will make us free,
peace…Rob

Rob,
Your inquiries will surely continue to be welcomed here, but you must first understand the Catholic beliefs, and history, you seek to discuss, or you are in fact arguing with a mere phantasm. Your comments indicate a comprehensive misunderstanding of both Catholic belief and history.

If you think Catholics, for the sake of their souls, should be saved from their doctrinal commitment, and that you are called to this mission, I encourage you to first know what that doctrinal commitment is. It is a matter of courtesy, that is, love of neighbor. You cannot point out the errors in something until you understand it. Perhaps you will be interested to know that no Catholic, after a life of prodigious good works in faithful service to Christ’s call, would attribute their vision, strength and wisdom to anything else than the Holy Spirit, and their salvation to the grace of God alone, through the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.
Joe

 

[Cinette]

Nita,

Thanks - Couldn’t have said it better myself…

One thing I would add though…At least two of the Protestant Churches do worship through “The mass” and both of these do hold to the “real presence”. These are the Lutheran and Anglican Churches. In fact the Anglican views (high Anglican) are so near to the Catholic view that the Church has made provision for them to enter the Catholic Church while retaining most of their practices. This is the “Anglican Ordinate”

I believe that Lutherans have defined the real presence as “Consubstantiation” but I don’t believe that the Anglican Church has attempted a definition.
The EO likewise has not attempted to define or explain the mystery of the real presence.

Peace
James

*As I understand it, Consubstantiation is different from Transubstantiation and is therefore not valid. I am puzzled with the Lutherans as there appears to be differing streams of Lutheranism. I once had a discussion with a Lutheran Pastor who told me that it is their belief that it is only the “body and blood when received by the communicant” Anything left over is just bread and wine which they feed to the birds.

Cinette*

 

[Wretched_Man]

I think we have strayed away from the Catholic View of Protestants to arguing over our theological diffrences, we might want to come a bit back onto topic before this thread gets closed.

Just trying to answer the questions and I have been trying to bring it back to the thread…catholic view towards protestants…let’s start with Luther…why did he protest…free thought was suggested…of course with the view of the catechism…but there has got to be some personal thought and perspective on subjects that are mentioned.

I mean if every thread introduced is handled by referring to catechism.# …??? then this is not the place for me to be …20 people will all have the same answer…christianity is ot an assembly line of thought but of uniqueness and God breathed words upon the heart of his children…there has got to be some perspective and support from God’s word…which is truth through the power of the Holy Spirit…we are all individuals, as one of your own have alluded to , yet that does not make us rebels without a cause as you assert Lauther was…a rebellious sort who’s only aim is dissension…the Holy Spirit moves on the church, the vessels of God as individual personalities with experience and revelation and insight so as to build his church.

So again, let’s start with Luther and the protestant reformation…why did he protest, what did he actually do…what was his motivating factor…and is what we have today his ultimate objective…

Cheers Rob

 

[Michael_Francis]

Departed from topic.
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