Catholicism and Culture... can it be too much?

[Omyo12]

First I’m going to give a little background on this situation. I was born into a Mexican-American Catholic family and over the years I lapsed from the faith (I’m back now )

The reason why I lapsed was because in looking at the Catholic faith from a Mexican-American perspective it was too extreme.

Mainly, **La Virgen de Guadalupe **has become a HUGE symbol in Mexican culture and many people have statues of the Virgin Mary along with Rosaries, not because they are faithful Catholics, but because of Mexican pride.

I know a lot of Protestants accuse the Catholic Church of being “Mary-worshipers” but I know the Vatican’s stance on it. I’ve read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and know the Church does not actually pray directly to Mary but asks Mary to pray for us.

However from what I’ve seen. Mexicans seem to actually pray TO Mary. It hit me when my mom was watching a Mexican soap opera on TV and this woman began praying to Mary. I still remember it to this day, it went:

“Please Virgencitta, help my sister get through this! Keep her safe and watch over her!”

(Virgencitta is a affectionate way of saying “Virgin” in Spanish)

No mention of Jesus, or Lord, or God…

At that point I realized that’s exactly what a lot of people do. I’ve noticed it in some relatives and family friends whenever I visit Mexico.

It was then I came to the (false) conclusion that Catholics were in fact Mary-worshipers and I left the Faith and considered myself a nondenominational Protestant for a little over a year (I then began to study what the Church taught and I came back)

Iono… am I being too judgmental? Any thoughts??

 

[reggieM]

The book, True Devotion to Mary, by St. Louis de Montfort might be a good resource for you to pursue. It gives an excellent background on Marian devotion. I would also be cautious about judging Mexican-Catholic culture too harshly. It was less than a hundred years ago when Catholicism was forbidden by law, under death threats from the government. As I see it, a better way is not to tell people to love Mary less but rather to find ways to love all of the fullness of the Catholic faith - which must include a true devotion to the Mother of God (but many other things as well).
Also – there is nothing wrong with praying to ask the Blessed Virgin to help us. One does not need to mention Jesus or the Holy Trinity in every prayer to Mary or the saints.

 

[carolin_A]

I think, this is the way the older generation were taught to pray. It is not only in the Mexican culture but also in the Indian cluture. Frankly, I only learnt to pray or understand how one should have devotion to Mary when I joined the Legion of Mary in my teens. Cathetism taught thirty years ago, asI was, is nothing like how it is taught today.

 

[Monica37]

I may be wromg on this (happens sometimes ), but I ask Mary to look after people all the time. I worked in an inner city school and I would often (quietly as it was a public school), pray to Mary to look after some of the kids. I asked her because she is their mother and some of the kid’s earthly moms were struggling to look after their kids. I knew she could not do anything without her Son, but I was just trying to appeal to her maternal nature to intercede for these kids. I didn’t specifically say that in my prayer, but I didn’t think I would have to, it was just kind of implied. Maybe that is what you were seeing? I’m not hispanic, but live in an area where most of the kids are. I really wish I could have given them the comfort of telling them that Mary was always there looking after them when it sometimes felt that no one was. For my part, I asked her to walk into the classroom with me every day and treated the children as if she were standing right next to me watching over her children. For you teachers out there you will know what it’s like having a parent in the room all day, I had the Blessed Mother !

 

[losh14]

Excellent question and one topic I’ve noticed and taken issue with as well.

First, it is difficult to assign any sort of intercessory powers to Mary without worhipping her Son - without Him, she’s a footnote in Scripture. I think we have this understanding in the States, every Marian service I’ve attended has been about God the Father and His greatness in bestowing Grace upon this Virgin. The Marian celebrations - Immaculate Conception, Annunciation, Assumption - all testify to the greatness of God and His plan. They are the buildup and anticipation of the greatest and most important moment in history - something that’s lost when someone flips right to the end of Luke and says “Just give me what Jesus did for ME”.

Second, it is possible to delve too far into Marian devotion, or any devotion for that matter. One can pray and be devoted to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, but if one ignores the calling of Christ to imitate Him and live a holy life, one’s walk with Christ is unbalanced.

The proper place of saints (and Scripture backs us up on this) is as those who pray for us (the Church Militant). They are intercessors, and we should be grateful for their example and their prayers, after all we expect to meet them in Heaven and celebrate with them at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb. Mary’s obedience to God is worthy of remembering, celebrating, and of calling her “Blessed” - likewise, Paul’s lifelong missionary efforts deserve an entire year of celebration and reflection, and our Church required the blood of martyrs to testify to the Truth, so we should thank God for them as well.

But to look at any of these outside of Christ is to put them in a place they do not belong. The martyrs would be madmen, and their deaths for nothing if not for Christ. The Apostles likewise would be fools if not for Christ. In any Catholic devotion, we can not make Christ remote or even second place without losing the meaning of the devotion.

I think that’s possible in some cultures - we see that from time to time here in the States, too, mostly among the generation that fought World War II. While I think the Church could do well to increase its pietistic practices, they can be taken to the extreme.

Although I’d discount much of Mexican television (and American as well). They like the prettiness of Catholicism culture but paint a very odd picture. Remember the John Woo flick “Face/Off”? In the church shootout, the priest - dressed like a seminarian - is speaking in Latin to an empty set of pews - and the Latin is gibberish. What about news reports and their fascination with the scandals of corrupt men in our Church to the detriment of the faithful servants who feed the hungry, save the threatened, intervene for the oppressed and shelter the homeless? There was a NYT story a few months back about indulgences and confession. The headline was “Bishops announce new way to get into Heaven” or some nonsense. Were I to be a Catholic in the vein of popular culture’s understanding of us, the Protestants would have every right to bang down my door and “save” me - I’d have only read in Latin, knelt with a rosary around my fingers uttering things I barely understood and paying attention to myths and fables from the Middle Ages.

I’ve often thought that, if the Rosary seems too “Marian” for non-Catholics, why not a devotion to the Holy Names of Jesus - “wonderful counselor, redeemer, healer” that we find in Scripture? As we say each of the beautiful names that Jesus was called in prophecy and in Gospel, we call to mind His deeds and His calling for us, and can open our hearts in gratitude to each.

 

[withwind]

However from what I’ve seen. Mexicans seem to actually pray TO Mary. It hit me when my mom was watching a Mexican soap opera on TV and this woman began praying to Mary. I still remember it to this day, it went:

“Please Virgencitta, help my sister get through this! Keep her safe and watch over her!”
(Virgencitta is a affectionate way of saying “Virgin” in Spanish)

No mention of Jesus, or Lord, or God…

Iono… am I being too judgmental? Any thoughts??

If one asks somebody for help, does one need to mention God in every single sentence?

If I ask you to help me do obtain a certain thing? Would I need to mention God so that you don’t think that I think of you as a “god”?

Virgin Mary can certainly help us as you might be able to help people in your family, but we do know that the source is coming from God who can permit anyone of us to assit Him in helping others.

Welcome back to the Church.

 

[reggieM]

Take, for example, The Memorare – an indulgenced (officially approved) prayer written by St. Bernard.

 

[MarieVeronica]

Hi “Omyo12” Welcome to CAF. I’m of Caucasian/Native American background… and only a 2nd generation… Cradle Catholic on my mothers side. The Blessed Virgin Mary has always been a BIG part in our Catholic lives.

I can remember my mother… from the time I was very small, showing me a little metal statue (which I still have) of Our Lady of Grace and telling me that “Mary should always be one of your best friends”.

Not only this, but my father… who was a non-denominational Christian… had a HUGE devotion to Our Lady. He always wore an Immaculate Heart medal and he lovingly hand carved many beautiful statues of Our Blessed Mother. He was very devoted to her.

I don’t really understand the difficulty you have expressed about Our Lady of Guadalupe being more a symbol of heritage with the Latino people. Perhaps you can help me to understand it better. I would be grateful. But… on the surface, from the perspective of a non-Latino person… it seems to me, that having a love and devotion to Our Lady deeply engrained into ones heritage… is not a “bad” thing.

God bless you.

 

[RobNY]

I know a lot of Protestants accuse the Catholic Church of being “Mary-worshipers” but I know the Vatican’s stance on it. I’ve read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and know the Church does not actually pray directly to Mary but asks Mary to pray for us.

However from what I’ve seen. Mexicans seem to actually pray TO Mary. It hit me when my mom was watching a Mexican soap opera on TV and this woman began praying to Mary. I still remember it to this day, it went:

I understand the point of the apologetics tactic, but it is true that Catholic Christians pray to Mary. Nevertheless, the intercession of the saints is wholly dependent on and subordinate to the power of Jesus, so it avoids any serious objection which a Protestant Christian might throw at it.

It is legitimate to have a saint-based devotion. Many of us don’t think that way, though. Do what is best for you. It isn’t a bad thing to direct your prayers to Mary, though, and indeed, it is good that people do so.

-Rob

 

[Omyo12]

"MarieVeronica:

I don’t really understand the difficulty you have expressed about Our Lady of Guadalupe being more a symbol of heritage with the Latino people. Perhaps you can help me to understand it better. I would be grateful. But… on the surface, from the perspective of a non-Latino person… it seems to me, that having a love and devotion to Our Lady deeply engrained into ones heritage… is not a “bad” thing.

Well, I’m not talking about the devotion, love, or praise to her. I’m all for that!

However I am talking about the use of the image itself. Some people have no devotion to her however only have tattoos of her for the sole purpose of heritage. She’s unfortunately even become a gang-icon to some. No love, no praise, no devotion… No more than a symbol

I understand the point of the apologetics tactic, but it is true that Catholic Christians pray to Mary. Nevertheless, the intercession of the saints is wholly dependent on and subordinate to the power of Jesus, so it avoids any serious objection which a Protestant Christian might throw at it.

It is legitimate to have a saint-based devotion. Many of us don’t think that way, though. Do what is best for you. It isn’t a bad thing to direct your prayers to Mary, though, and indeed, it is good that people do so.

-Rob

I just see as the over-zealous Marian devotion of some to be borderline worship.

I ask you along with withwind who stated:

withwind:

If I ask you to help me do obtain a certain thing? Would I need to mention God so that you don’t think that I think of you as a “god”?

Does Mary have divine power over the world?

It’s OK to ask me for a favor if it in my power. However is divine intervention in the power of Mary?

 

[requieroveritas]

Well, I’m not talking about the devotion, love, or praise to her. I’m all for that!

However I am talking about the use of the image itself. Some people have no devotion to her however only have tattoos of her for the sole purpose of heritage. She’s unfortunately even become a gang-icon to some. No love, no praise, no devotion… No more than a symbol

I just see as the over-zealous Marian devotion of some to be borderline worship.

I ask you along with withwind who stated:

Does Mary have divine power over the world?

It’s OK to ask me for a favor if it in my power. However is divine intervention in the power of Mary?

(I borrowed much of this from previous posts I have made, but I think the information is appropriate)

Mary has no divine power. That by definition is of God. However, God has given her much power and authority which she may excercise with his consent, and in the furtherance of His will.

Before time began, and before there was creation, Our Mother and her Son, Jesus, were in the mind of God. In one “timeless” as I like to say it, moment, God knew all of creation and its result. He knew that 1/3 of all the angelic host would fall; he knew that man would fall and that only a perfect sacrifice from a God made man, born of a pure and sinless woman, would suffice to redeem mankind; he knew that that woman, Mary, would suffer dearly, her heart pierced through by a sword of suffering in seeing her only son mercilessly killed. Our Lord so loved this woman, that upon her death, he took her soul and her body into Heaven. There, she was crowned Queen of Heaven and of Earth, and made The Mediatrix between ourselves and her son, as well as the keeper and dispenser of all of God’s graces.

It is fitting that we pray to her for those reasons, Her influence with God is immense. She intercedes for us.

Praying to Mary is not the same as worshipping her. We do not worship Mary, only God. When we pray to Mary, it is understood that we are praying that she will intercede on our behalf to Her son, Jesus.

God has a special, terrible punishment for those who abuse or mock the mother of God such as you have described here by gang members, if they do not repent:

Concerning chapter 21 of Revelation;

"266. “The angels of which the Evangelist speaks in this place, are seven of those who attend in a special manner at the throne of God and who have received commission and power to punish some of the sins of men. This vengeance of the wrath of the Omnipotent (Apoc. 15, 1) will happen in the last ages of the world; but it shall be a new punishment, greater than which neither before nor after is possible during mortal existence. But since these mysteries are deeply hidden and since not all have been revealed to me, nor concern this history, I do not consider it proper to expatiate upon them, but I will pass on to what more closely concerns my task. This angel, of which St. John speaks, is the one through whom God will avenge with an especial and dreadful chastisement the injuries committed against his most holy Mother ; for the insane daring, with which they have despised Her, has roused the indignation of his Omnipotence. As the most holy Trinity has pledged Itself to honor and exalt this Queen of heaven above all human creatures and above the angels, placing Her in this world as a Mirror of the Divinity and as the special Mediatrix of mortals, God has taken it in a particular manner upon Himself to avenge the heresies, errors, outrages, and all injuries committed against Her, since thereby men have not glorified, acknowledged and adored Him in this tabernacle and have not made use of this incomparable mercy. These punishments are prophesied to the holy Church. Although the mysterious words of the Apocalypse enshroud in obscurity the rigor of this punishment, yet woe to the unhappy ones, that shall be overtaken by it ! Woe to me, who have offended a God so strong and powerful to chastise! I am over whelmed in the expectation of the great calamity here threatened.”-1

-1 from the book “Mystical City of God”, in which the nature of God and the life of the Blessed Virgin Mary are described by Sister Mary of Agreda, born in Spain on April 2, 1602, and given her in private revelation. The book whose original Spanish version was translated into English by Fiscar Marison which he began in 1902, was then published by the W. B. Conkey, Co., of Hammond IN.

 

[carolin_A]

I may be wromg on this (happens sometimes ), but I ask Mary to look after people all the time. I worked in an inner city school and I would often (quietly as it was a public school), pray to Mary to look after some of the kids. I asked her because she is their mother and some of the kid’s earthly moms were struggling to look after their kids. I knew she could not do anything without her Son, but I was just trying to appeal to her maternal nature to intercede for these kids. I didn’t specifically say that in my prayer, but I didn’t think I would have to, it was just kind of implied. Maybe that is what you were seeing? I’m not hispanic, but live in an area where most of the kids are. I really wish I could have given them the comfort of telling them that Mary was always there looking after them when it sometimes felt that no one was. For my part, I asked her to walk into the classroom with me every day and treated the children as if she were standing right next to me watching over her children. For you teachers out there you will know what it’s like having a parent in the room all day, I had the Blessed Mother !

Yes, I agree with what you say. Mother Mary is the closest we have to Jesus. She was the first to believe in God’s salvation plan and accept his plan without much questioing. That was what her faith was like. We too can be like her and believe that, Our Lord will always listen to his mother’s intercession for us, in whichever way we pray. That is, whether or not we mention God, when we pray to her. God understands and knows exactly what we have in our mind, when we offer our prayers. What I feel is important is that, we know what our faith is (that we do not worship Mary) about and what it means to us, when we pray to Mary. There will always be our separated brothers and sisters, who will never agree with our teachings. We need to pray for God’s grace for them to understand us. I know, there are plenty of catholics, who do not know how to pray on their own without following any set prayers. If a certain community is not understanding or following the teachings of the church correctly, it should be the responsibility of the religious in that country to educate the poeple.

 

[losh14]

However I am talking about the use of the image itself. Some people have no devotion to her however only have tattoos of her for the sole purpose of heritage. She’s unfortunately even become a gang-icon to some. No love, no praise, no devotion… No more than a symbol

For good or bad, no one has monopoly to infuse symbols with meaning. Understanding a symbol must be done within the frame of reference of the one using the symbol. As such, symbolic objects are tabula rasa and require interpretation to have meaning.

Consider the objections of some fundamentalist Christians to the use of Christmas trees - because the Norse decorated pine trees as a form of pagan worship. For Christians who celebrate Christmas with a Christmas tree, the tree is either a secular symbol of the cultural story of Santa Claus and a place to focus family time around, or it can convey concepts such as immortality, regeneration, and the strength of life, all of which are appropriate in Christendom.

As such, those who offer the images of the Virgin Mary as gang symbols are free to interpret as they wish, but I’d hope they’d consider who they claim to represent them. Why not another symbol of Mexican culture - the eagle, the colors of the flag, totemic jaguars or mesoamerican words?

 

[RobNY]

Does Mary have divine power over the world?

It’s OK to ask me for a favor if it in my power. However is divine intervention in the power of Mary?

God alone by sovereign right has all Power, Authority and Glory. But He shares these marvelously with His saints. God has given great power to His Mother, Mary. Her power is not “divine” in the sense that it is dependent on God (and God is not dependent on anyone), that it is participated (she has power only by sharing God’s power, and God is not participated whatsoever), and received (God has all power, but does not receive it from anyone). She is not, in short, autonomous.

-Rob

 

[withwind]

Does Mary have divine power over the world?

It’s OK to ask me for a favor if it in my power. However is divine intervention in the power of Mary?

God alone by sovereign right has all Power, Authority and Glory. But He shares these marvelously with His saints. God has given great power to His Mother, Mary. Her power is not “divine” in the sense that it is dependent on God (and God is not dependent on anyone), that it is participated (she has power only by sharing God’s power, and God is not participated whatsoever), and received (God has all power, but does not receive it from anyone). She is not, in short, autonomous.

-Rob