Catholicism and Predestination

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Hello, and I apologize in advance if this is not posted in the correct section of the forum. If perhaps one of the moderators could help me move it to the correct part I would be most appreciative.

In the interest of full disclosure: I am a practicing Protestant who was raised Protestant and has attended strong Protestant churches my entire life. Unfortunately (as I am sure many of you are aware of), this meant (as it does for so many Protestants) that growing up I was taught many things about the Catholic church that I now know to be untrue (that Catholics worship Mary; that Catholics do not believe in the Bible; that Catholics aren’t even really Christians). Through the kind guidance of some very close friends of mine who are devout Catholics, these misconceptions have been explained to me one by one.

That being said, my friends have lives outside of teaching me about Catholicism and none of them know everything about everything concerning Catholicism. Hence my arrival at this forum and its mother website - Catholic Answers - which I have found immensely useful.

All of that being said, I’d like to ask a question that I am sure you all have encountered before – I am a little bit confused concerning Catholic teaching on predestination (and subsequently, free will). As I’m sure many of you know, in general Protestants fall into two main camps, Arminianism and Calvinism. However, since neither Calvin nor Arminius were Catholics, I would not expect Catholic teaching to adhere to either of these teachers. What does the Catholic church teach about predestination? What about free will? Is election unconditional?

Thanks so much, and I appreciate your responses in advance.
 
Hi, I am a convert to Catholicism from Protestant Fundamentalism. I was 49 years old at the time, back in 2004. I can assure you that the Catholic Church teaches that all men have free will and are therefore free to choose Christ and His salvation. For a really good site which is aimed at non-Catholics who either 1) converted to or 2) are questioning about the Catholic Church, I recommend:

catholic-convert.com/

Stephen Ray, the moderator of the site, is himself a Protestant convert. You will find much valuable information on the Catholic Church there. God bless you as you continue your questioning about our wonderful Catholic Church! 👍
 
oapu said:
Hello, and I apologize in advance if this is not posted in the correct section of the forum. If perhaps one of the moderators could help me move it to the correct part I would be most appreciative.

In the interest of full disclosure: I am a practicing Protestant who was raised Protestant and has attended strong Protestant churches my entire life. Unfortunately (as I am sure many of you are aware of), this meant (as it does for so many Protestants) that growing up I was taught many things about the Catholic church that I now know to be untrue (that Catholics worship Mary; that Catholics do not believe in the Bible; that Catholics aren’t even really Christians). Through the kind guidance of some very close friends of mine who are devout Catholics, these misconceptions have been explained to me one by one.

That being said, my friends have lives outside of teaching me about Catholicism and none of them know everything about everything concerning Catholicism. Hence my arrival at this forum and its mother website - Catholic Answers - which I have found immensely useful.

All of that being said, I’d like to ask a question that I am sure you all have encountered before – I am a little bit confused concerning Catholic teaching on predestination (and subsequently, free will). As I’m sure many of you know, in general Protestants fall into two main camps, Arminianism and Calvinism. However, since neither Calvin nor Arminius were Catholics, I would not expect Catholic teaching to adhere to either of these teachers. What does the Catholic church teach about predestination? What about free will? Is election unconditional?

Thanks so much, and I appreciate your responses in advance.
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The Church teaches - as does the Bible - that we have a free will. Whereas some events and people may have been predestined for good - nobody has been predestined for hell and God does not preordain evil.

Our response to God’s call is an example of our free will. We can either accept the grace to believe or reject it since it is a free gift. If his grace if forced upon us, it no longer remains a gift but a sentence.

When the Scriptures speak of God’s foreknowledge or predestination, we must remember that he is out of time and is not bound by the same constraints that we are. To say that God forknew something is a human explanation of describing that he ALWAYS knew. With God - everything is like a finished painting that he has always seen and continues to see for eternity. This, however, does not mean that he ordained everything that is in that painting because his will is not always followed.

One proof of free will is 1 Tim 2:4, which states that God wills the salvation of ALL men. We know that not all will be saved because they exercised their free will to reject him.
 
oapu said:
Hello, and I apologize in advance if this is not posted in the correct section of the forum. If perhaps one of the moderators could help me move it to the correct part I would be most appreciative.

In the interest of full disclosure: I am a practicing Protestant who was raised Protestant and has attended strong Protestant churches my entire life. Unfortunately (as I am sure many of you are aware of), this meant (as it does for so many Protestants) that growing up I was taught many things about the Catholic church that I now know to be untrue (that Catholics worship Mary; that Catholics do not believe in the Bible; that Catholics aren’t even really Christians). Through the kind guidance of some very close friends of mine who are devout Catholics, these misconceptions have been explained to me one by one.

That being said, my friends have lives outside of teaching me about Catholicism and none of them know everything about everything concerning Catholicism. Hence my arrival at this forum and its mother website - Catholic Answers - which I have found immensely useful.

All of that being said, I’d like to ask a question that I am sure you all have encountered before – I am a little bit confused concerning Catholic teaching on predestination (and subsequently, free will). As I’m sure many of you know, in general Protestants fall into two main camps, Arminianism and Calvinism. However, since neither Calvin nor Arminius were Catholics, I would not expect Catholic teaching to adhere to either of these teachers. What does the Catholic church teach about predestination? What about free will? Is election unconditional?

Thanks so much, and I appreciate your responses in advance.
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without free will we can doing nothing out of love.
 
oapu said:
However, since neither Calvin nor Arminius were Catholic
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Actually, Calvin was a Catholic - and was considered for Orders (which would have made him a priest, as Martin Luther was).
 
oapu said:
All of that being said, I’d like to ask a question that I am sure you all have encountered before – I am a little bit confused concerning Catholic teaching on predestination (and subsequently, free will). As I’m sure many of you know, in general Protestants fall into two main camps, Arminianism and Calvinism.
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The equivalent of both teachings falls within the bounds of Catholic teaching. Molinism is a lot like Arminianism. The only real difference between the two is the term scientia media. And Thomism is a lot like Calvinism. The main difference there is the lack of any teaching equivalent to perseverance of the saints.

Thomism is named for Thomas Aquinas, although there have been two kinds of Thomists through the history of Catholicism- those who were around more at the time of Aquinas and those who were around since the post-Reformation controversy who fell on the side headed up by a Spaniard named Domingo Banez. Opposite him was a Jesuit named Molina, for whom Molinism is named. Most Jesuits are Molinists; most others are Thomists. There’s other (smaller) camps too, though- Augustinians who align more with Augustine than with Aquinas, and there’s a couple of other ones too. You cover most of the important things if you get familiar with the conflict between Banez and Molina near the end of the 15th century. Each side launched an inquisition against the other; it initially looked like Molinism would be condemned but it ended in a dual non-decision over a total period of time close to a decade. Also, neither side is allowed to argue with the other in any official capacity.
However, since neither Calvin nor Arminius were Catholics, I would not expect Catholic teaching to adhere to either of these teachers.
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Ohhh, it’s pretty close. That was the main accusation that the Molinists had against the Thomists- “you guys are just like the Calvinists, you’re selling out, they’ve corrupted you.” Thomists accused the Molinists of being semi-Pelagian, but you could say the same thing of Arminians, and for the same reasons.
What does the Catholic church teach about predestination?
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There’s certain boundaries established within the Catechism, but the shape of the teachings within these boundaries winds up looking pretty similar to the shapes you have in Protestantism.
What about free will?
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Depends. Varies from person to person. Same as it does with Protestants.
Is election unconditional?
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Again, it depends.
 
In Catholic teaching, neither man’s free will, nor God’s sovereignty are violated in the order of election. This is a mystery, but we believe that any formulation of free will should reflect those realities. Here is a pertinent text from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:*CCC#600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” (Act 4:27-28; cf. Ps. 2:1-2) For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.*Now man’s free will does not “trump” God’s sovereignty, nor does it force God to “submit” to man’s will. After all, the terms of the covenant are God’s terms. Man can “accept God” all he wants (which he cannot do without God’s grace, by the way), but unless God wills to receive that acceptance, man is going nowhere but to hell.

Not only that, but the very gift of free will is God’s gift (one of the verses the Catechism sites for this is Sirach 15:14, which most Protestants do not recognize as Scripture). It is a testament to the generosity of God. God is not only sovereign, but also generous. So utilizing the very gift bestowed on us is hardly a violation of God’s sovereignty but the exercise thereof.

You see for instance in the OT the incident with Pharoah. The text in Exodus includes verses that say “God hardened Pharoah’s heart” and other passages that say “Pharoah hardened his heart.” The action is attributed both to God and Pharoah. Pharoah’s will doesn’t violate God’s, nor does God violate Pharoah’s free will.
 
oapu said:
Hello, and I apologize in advance if this is not posted in the correct section of the forum. If perhaps one of the moderators could help me move it to the correct part I would be most appreciative.

In the interest of full disclosure: I am a practicing Protestant who was raised Protestant and has attended strong Protestant churches my entire life. Unfortunately (as I am sure many of you are aware of), this meant (as it does for so many Protestants) that growing up I was taught many things about the Catholic church that I now know to be untrue (that Catholics worship Mary; that Catholics do not believe in the Bible; that Catholics aren’t even really Christians). Through the kind guidance of some very close friends of mine who are devout Catholics, these misconceptions have been explained to me one by one.

That being said, my friends have lives outside of teaching me about Catholicism and none of them know everything about everything concerning Catholicism. Hence my arrival at this forum and its mother website - Catholic Answers - which I have found immensely useful.

All of that being said, I’d like to ask a question that I am sure you all have encountered before – I am a little bit confused concerning Catholic teaching on predestination (and subsequently, free will). As I’m sure many of you know, in general Protestants fall into two main camps, Arminianism and Calvinism. However, since neither Calvin nor Arminius were Catholics, I would not expect Catholic teaching to adhere to either of these teachers. What does the Catholic church teach about predestination? .
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The Church teaches predestination, just not double predestination. The error of the Calvinists and proponents of double predestination is that they ignore the clear Biblical statement that “God is not willing that any should perish.” If they insist on absolute predestination then they must believe that everyone will be saved since God is not willing that any should perish, but they don’t, so their stance is inconsistent and contradictory.
 
oapu said:
Hello, and I apologize in advance if this is not posted in the correct section of the forum. If perhaps one of the moderators could help me move it to the correct part I would be most appreciative.

In the interest of full disclosure: I am a practicing Protestant who was raised Protestant and has attended strong Protestant churches my entire life. Unfortunately (as I am sure many of you are aware of), this meant (as it does for so many Protestants) that growing up I was taught many things about the Catholic church that I now know to be untrue (that Catholics worship Mary; that Catholics do not believe in the Bible; that Catholics aren’t even really Christians). Through the kind guidance of some very close friends of mine who are devout Catholics, these misconceptions have been explained to me one by one.

That being said, my friends have lives outside of teaching me about Catholicism and none of them know everything about everything concerning Catholicism. Hence my arrival at this forum and its mother website - Catholic Answers - which I have found immensely useful.

All of that being said, I’d like to ask a question that I am sure you all have encountered before – I am a little bit confused concerning Catholic teaching on predestination (and subsequently, free will). As I’m sure many of you know, in general Protestants fall into two main camps, Arminianism and Calvinism. However, since neither Calvin nor Arminius were Catholics, I would not expect Catholic teaching to adhere to either of these teachers. What does the Catholic church teach about predestination? What about free will? Is election unconditional?

Thanks so much, and I appreciate your responses in advance.
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I’ll pass on a couple of things I know about this subject. I read part of the book entitled “Predestination” by Fr Garrigou-LaGrange. It’s a very difficult book and probably the most difficult I’ve ever read. He says, in so many words, that we take kind of a middle ground in a way. God knows everything so He knows who will make it and who won’t. This doesn’t mean God wills some of us to hell. God allows us to use our free will to choose Him. It’s in God’s permissive will to allow us to choose hell. God won’t prevent it thus, free will. This means God doesn’t cause us to go to hell but, rather, permits it. Fr LaGrange quotes 1 Tim 2:4 which says, “Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” God desires all of us to be saved. He says this is one of the parameters that must be taken into account when discussing predestination and goes against the Calvinist View. There are 2 acceptable views in the Catholic Church concerning predestination - the Thomist View and the Molinist View. The Thomist View was explained by St. Thomas Aquinas in the 1200’s and the Molinist View was explained by the Jesuit Fr Molina in the 1600’s. I’m not going to try and explain the 2. Maybe you could go on the internet and find them. There are so many verses that bring this all to bear so I will stay away from them for now. Hope this helps as a start.
 
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